I think we have to look at the two different worlds (LAV’s and CIVY’s). People like Larry and the group he left shoot more ammo than we can even imagine. They would have a SS barrel shot out in no time flat. Most Civy shooters only run 3-4K a YEAR through their weapons (if that). Most folks on the “bubble gum” forums most likely only shoot 500rds a year. So a SS barrel being used so little, is going to give the shooter a longer life than a HSLD guy.
I think there is a need for a 16" SS platform that is capable of extreme accuracy in the .Mil world. There is also a need for it in the Civy world. I often times use my Recon AR to varmint hunt. Its accuracy lends itself well to this hobby and gives me some practice on moving targets.
We (as Civy shooters) have to keep things in context and realize where the writer is coming from and understand to what audience he is giving advice to.
On a di gas system, the gas along with the carbon it contains is dumped into the chamber area. Chrome plated chambers tends to be somewhat self-cleaning of carbon fouling. The carbon tends to stick more to the brass and not the chromed chamber, while on a unplated chamber it stick equally to both.
Stainless steel barrels simply do not have the corrosion resistance and barrel life of a chrome lined barrel. A stainless steel barrel is moderately corrosion resistant and has a hardness of around 30-40 on the rockwell C scale. The chrome plating is extremely corrosion resistant and and has a hardness over what the C scale goes to. Stainless steel ar barrels are used in the military, but only on special weapons that are for special purposes(sniping and target shooting) and get a limited amount of rounds fired through them compared to g.i. weapons. Pat Rogers stated that Force Recon can go through 5,000-8,000 rounds from their primary and secondary weapons in two weeks of training. If stainless steel barrels were used they would have to be replaced every couple of weeks. Chrome lined barrels can easily go twice that.
The chrome lined barrel on my ar will shoot around 1-1.5 MOA at 100 yds with good ammo and my sgt’s stainless bull barreled ar will shoot around 0.5 MOA at the same range with the same ammo. The difference, which will not make any difference in my general purpose carbines role, simply is way to much of a difference for my sgt’s urban sniper’s rifle’s role. Mine might have to work for several dozen or even several hundred rounds at a range of contact to several dozen yards, his only has to work for a magazine or two(or less) at 25 to 100 yds. Mine might go through a case of ammo in a month or two, his goes through a couple of cases a year. And a military or SWAT carbine can go through several cases a week.
Thats a Force unit in run up - its not firing that EVERY week
Some units have two or three lowers issued and 6+ uppers. Tier1 units that do 5k+ rounds a week will not be troubles by a gun shitting the bed in the training – friends I know have identical guns for that sort of stuff. And in expending that sort of round count - especially when some use suppressors – other things die out before the barrel.
DI does not dump gas into the chamber directly – it dumps it intially into the bolt - which exits the carrier in various manners – and then after unlocking some gas is expelled into the receiver opening – the only gas directly dumped into the chamber is from the expended casing – which is the same in a gas piston gun.
I have a 16" Douglas middy SS barrel I use - its over 14k w/o a noticeable problems - inc some heavy fire periods (10+ mags in a “short” period of time). USNSWC Crabe did a shitload of testing (auto and endurance) with the Douglas barrels for the Mk12 and then later with the Lilja’s – the majority of issues I have seen with stainless barrels is due to their chambering – not due to the fact they are stainless. I dont think SS barrels are for everthing – but I would not discount them – and I doubt that was LAV’s intent either.
By the time the extraction starts, the DI gas system pretty well spent… the gas that is blown back through the chamber comes from the bore in front of it and it is a concern with a piston system the same as a DI system. Check out the slo-mo video that rsilvers posted and you can see the gas blowback from the chamber of a piston upper very clearly.
Hard chrome lining is designed as a protection from environmental threats… the forward throat area of a gun wears out do to the high heat and pressures of the gas, as well as the mechanical torque and hammering of the bullet – there is really no concern with “wearing” a bore out. The thing to keep in mind about hard chrome is that it is no different from regular chrome, other than it is actually applied in a thick enough layer that a hardness test can be done on it… but still it is very thin. Again, while it certainly offers some degree of protection, primarily it is there to keep the bore from rusting.
Rescent test of several military barrels show that throat errosion is not what a lot of forum experts will try to tell you it is… cut a few shot out barrels in two and see what is going on, it is interesting as hell. I first started looking at this while researching hot spots and cook offs… you will see the relation between the two and that most of the info you get about “heat sinks” and all of that is just so much crap.
Stainless barrels have had a rather good show with the military really and the life of them is not at all as bad as some say – what is noted is that a SS barrels fails suddenly, it shoots pretty good right up to the end of its useful life and then takes a dump and dies – while a chromemo/HC barrel will taper off gradually till it just aint worth keeping, but the end of life is harder to notice. If you take a look at the throat/leade areas of different barrels, you will see a distinct wear “pattern” with chromemo and SS.
BTW: I dont like hooded front sights, they cause the shooter to naturally align the circle-in-a-circle and not the front sight post (which would almost never be center in the front circle) – I know “I seem to have no problem getting them to line up while posing the draw down on myself in the bathroom mirror, while wearing every piece of tacticool nylon known to man”… the answer might be. So have your buddy get a box of stray cats and try to get a good sight picture while he is throwing the cats at you… naked.
ETA: I actually started this before Kevin posted, but my two fingers were going as fast as they could
DI does not dump gas into the chamber directly – it dumps it intially into the bolt - which exits the carrier in various manners – and then after unlocking some gas is expelled into the receiver opening – the only gas directly dumped into the chamber is from the expended casing – which is the same in a gas piston gun.
Thank you, it’s time someone said this. Some residue will blow out the carrier by the bolt into the extension but the barrel and chamber by and large makes its own.
Gas primarily vents out the two front relief holes. Some residue blows by the rings and goes out the cam slot and by the head of the bolt but this is a small fraction.
Some also comes out the rear relief hole(the thing near the FPRP hole) and also goes out past the tail end of the bolt to be deposited around the head of the firing pin and asociated areas of the carrier.
Who is that audience? In this case, buyers of a Guns & Ammo special edition entitled, Tactical Guns and Gear. His conclusion referred to Joe Citizen and the requirement that he ought be able to effectively operate an M16.
Here is why I think you get his intended audience wrong: “And frankly, if you are only attaching a simple weapon light to your carbine, a piece of Picatinny rail bolted onto your handguard works well. Picatinny-rail-system handguards came from the need to bolt on an IR laser (such as the ITI US GI-issued PEQ-2 unit) and have it retain zero. If this is not a requirement of your AR-15-style carbine, I would think long and hard before getting your rail system. Ask yourself whether you are getting it because you really need it or because you think it looks cool.”
Few, if any, of we CIVY’s have an AN/PEQ-2A (or equivalent.) So, to whom is he addressing this comment? The same audience as the audience of the whole article? I think so.
Zak Smith had a good article on slings. Someone named Patrick Sweeney had a couple of articles. I didn’t note any bio info on him at the end of the articles. Who is he?
I bought the magazine pretty much for that article, although it has some other interesting articles. Simplicity and irons permanently set to cowitness were some of the points made. Once I establish the credibility of the sources, I pretty much get my info from sites like this and 10-8 and have pretty much kissed gunzines goddbye. I will buy one for a name that I like or if it has four or five interesting articles. If you use the search function, you find that most of the questions have been asked.
Kevin brings up some very valid points a few posts above.
In the military, going to the range is a nightmare, with all the safety BS and civilian management, etc. Most all SOF units except for a couple share ranges with big army, and NEVER have “priority”. It is that division/brigade’s base, their ranges, and their money paying for their upkeep/management. You can’t just go to the range and blow ammo, which is also in painfully short supply right now, Army-wise anyways.
You will have 15,000 round weeks, usually followed up by 3 months of not shooting at a range.
Guys in units who would have to worry about barrel life don’t…because an armorer can swap out any part or the whole gun in 5 minutes, no questions asked.
Screwed blocks equal screwed guns, eventually they will move. Accept it, and have ADCO or Bravo Co. or someone pin your gas block. If you’ll spend $20 on a bent trigger guard, you have no excuse.
Good discussion. I now understand (I think) the context in which Mr Vickers made his comments about SS barrel durability. Like I thought, it’s a matter of expectations. Like Grant said, I shoot about 2500 to 4000 rounds per year, so a SS barrel will last two to three years before it is no longer accurate enough.
I have seen the way my SS barrels have died, and it matches what KL Davis observed.
I’m still in the dark about the “disaster” impending if one uses something other than a Cr-Mo chrome plated barrel.
I read Vicker’s article, and I really like when someone has strong opinions AND ALSO explains WHY.
I was disappointed to see he recommended against hooded front sights, because I really like things like the Troy flip-up front sight. So he “gored my sacred cow,” but I can’t complain because I have no combat experience; I can only shut up and learn.
On the other hand, he’s not deer hunting in my woods, either, so if his points only apply to a combat application, I also feel free to use what works for me.
He has solid reasons behind his recommendations. I have reasons behind my choices. In the end, since I’m not operating on a team, it’s my life at stake, and I am comfortable with my choices.
Once I establish the credibility of the sources, I pretty much get my info from sites like this and 10-8 and have pretty much kissed gunzines goddbye. I will buy one for a name that I like or if it has four or five interesting articles.
True, but you can’t sell advertising space if you don’t have the circulation numbers.
Remind me to hit you up for free legal advice. My excuse for not wanting to pay for it will be, 1) I’m too cheap & 2) You’ll make money off other clients so why should I pay.
Just buy the damn magazine. Cato, since you can’t get one in Europe I’ll buy two and send you one…FREE of charge!
