Anyone here considering going to a 1911 in 9MM for self defense?

General Firearms Handguns - 1911
1

First I’m 62 years old and started reading Col. Cooper in the late 60s’. All my Uncles were dyed in the wool 1911 Fans who purchased 1911 pistols and ammo before the 68 Gun Control Act and that’s what they carried in a holster inside their bid overalls. Hardball of course as Super Vel didn’t exist at the time. I have a long love affair with the 1911 in .45 as it was the only handgun for self defense according to my Uncles and Col. Cooper. Fast forward about 50 years and others like Bill Wilson and others are claiming the 9MM with the right ammo is just as good. Still I remember others also saying with everything being equal the 1911 is more reliable in .45ACP than anything else. So does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Here’s a link to a video where Bill Wilson states he’s going to start to carry a Compact 1911 in 9MM.
http://youtu.be/scz1uWl21bM

2

No such thing as a 9mm 1911 Gary, but it sounds like you get that already. 1911’s are 45ACP / .38 Super only. I suggest we call these 9mm abominations 2011’s to accurately separate them from historically appropriate 1911’s.

I own lots of 9mm hand guns, all of my 1911’s are 45ACP.

3

I’d be fine with one so long as it functioned 100%.

As to actually carrying as my ccw? Again, yes. Providing I could put the time into nailing down the motor patterns for manipulating the safety beforehand.

4

9mm 1911’s can be made to run 100%. But the gun/mag combo has to be set up correctly.

HOW TO MAKE A 9MM 1911 RUN RELIABLY WITH HOLLOW POINT AMMUNITION

I have been a big proponent of the 9mm 1911 for many years. Nothing quite fits my hand and points like a 1911. In my previous assignments I have had the opportunity to shoot at length just about all of the handguns commonly used by police officers. Yet I have stayed with the 1911 because of its superior ergonomics and its safety features

The first 20 years of my career I carried a 1911 chambered in .45 . However, I have to confess the torque and muzzle flip of that big round always bothered me a bit, particularly shooting one handed.

I have not been impressed with the “stopping power” of handguns (as compared to a shotgun or rifle) and have felt that I would be better served with a handgun round that I could hit faster and more often with (within reason). Further, in this age of the “third generation hollow point ” I suspect many tactical shooters are better served with a 9mm. In fact some police departments are going back to this round because there officers tend to shoot higher qualification scores with a “9 - particularly with women and smaller stature males.

I understand many will not agree with me, but these have been my observations.

After much trail and error; this is the combination I have found that works and will provide a 9mm 1911 that is combat reliable.

A 5" inch gun (more on a commander length later).

Stock Recoil Spring

Make sure that your slide has a true 9mm/38 super breach face, some Kimbers, Springfields maybe others may have a wider breach face (.40/10mm) and the extractor has been bent “way over” in order to engage the 9mm cartridge rim - this will cause problems.

I usually polish my breach faces so they are nice a smooth.

Wilson Nowlin Ramped Barrel (standard profile /bushing configuration)

EGW Heavy Duty Extractor - properly tensioned with a bit it of polishing (these are fairly new and I have been using them in my latest builds)

Extended Ejector - the shape of the tip does not seem to be so important - if you have erratic or weak ejection it most likely is a lack of proper extractor tension.

Most important the “magazine” - I have tried them all, you name them I have tried them. The one that works; the one that correctly feeds the round smoothly and keeps the round “trapped” so that a loaded round does not pop out of the top and also so a partially filled magazine can drop free is the Metalform Springfield 9mm Magazine with the integral ramp that spaces the rounds to the rear.

With one caveat: I disassemble the magazine and with my Dremel Tool using the round gray abrasive polishing wheel (its not a stone but some sort of softer abrasive polishing substance) I polish and open up the last 1/3 of the magazine lips so the round releases earlier. From the factory the Metalform magazine lips are parallel to each other and are approximately .335 apart. You want to gradually open the lips - only polishing the last 1/3 length of each lip so at the end where the cartridge is released you are at about .350 - .355. I usually get my polishing wheel to where it will fit in the magazine and under the lips and polish from there. I frequently stop and measure until the lips reach the desired distance apart. I did not figure this out myself a gunsmith who specializes in building 9mm 1911 told me the “secret”. I also usually polish the magazine integral feed ramp so it is nice and shiny.

Modifying the magazine is very easy and only takes a few minutes for each one.

I also make sure that the magazine body will drop free of the guns mag well. If not I sand and polish the outside of the magazine until they do ( I find that sometimes I have to do this on Caspian guns - no problem on Colts)

Next, after putting the magazine back together I load it with nine rounds of duty ammo (usually Speer 124+p Gold Dot). I then put in a shortened firing pin in the gun (so I cant have an accidental discharge). Then with the slide forward, I put the magazine in and “inch” the slide back till it just clears the magazine well and I then release the slide. If the bullet hits hard on the ramp (you can sometimes feel and hear this hard hit - its hard to explain), I disassemble the gun and using the same soft gray abrasive polishing wheel on my Dremel Tool (the same one that I used on the magazines) I polish the top half of the ramp and “slightly” reconfigure the ramp to a slightly shallower angle - I have no way to measure, but its not much and there is still plenty of case support (very important in a 9mm).

In my duty gun which I have been running for years and have run many thousands through I have never had any feeding or extraction issues with hollow point ammo - none! The only issues have been cheap practice ammo. Some very soft 9mm brass that my extractor pulled right through (Remingtom UMC) and some with dead primers (Winclean).

I have built several 4.25 inch guns with good results. My favorite is using a Caspian 4.25 slide on a Caspian Officer size frame. It is a great combination for concealed carry, particularly if you live and work in a hot, humid climate in and around Houston, Texas.

The envelope for good performance on this combination is tighter then on the 5 inch guns. I find that extractor tension on the shorter guns seem to have to be a bit stronger then on the longer guns. Everything else applies as on 5 inch guns - with one big difference. Again I have tried all of the magazines - the only one that works all the time is the shorter 8 round Metalform Springfield 9mm Magazine made specifically for Officer framed guns.

There is however one big difference between the 8 round and 9 round Metalform Springfield 9mm Magazine; and it is this: If you look on the magazines there is a rib or a crease that runs the length of the magazine on either side. The crease protrudes inside the magazine and decreases the width of the magazine at approximately the point where a 9mm FMJ bullet meets the shell casing (with the base of the cartridge resting near or on the back wall of the magazine). In the Metalform 9 round magazines the distance between these two ribs is very “generous” and if a shorter 9mm hollow point bullet while in the magazine and while “in the stack” should ride forward (its shorter then a FMJ) to where the tip of the hollow point is all the way forward inside the magazine there is still sufficient room between these two creases for the tapering 9mm casing to ride up the body of the magazine with out interference.

Not so on the 8 round Metalform magazines. Apparently the forming jigs that Metalform uses is different and distances between these internal creases are closer together - so much so that if one or two of the shorter hollow point rounds ride forward inside the magazine tube under recoil they can bind at that spot and the magazine follower and stack of 9mm hollow points will freeze at that spot.

This type of jam does not happen often with the shorter magazines - but when using hollow points it eventually will.

I have tried to modify the magazines by polishing down the ribs or hammering them down a bit using a hand made mandrel. The mandrel worked well - but then the magazine was very tight in the mag well and took a bit of effort to pull out. I then tried sanding/filling down the outside of the magazine so that it would drop free but was not successful.

The only fix that I came up for the Officer sized magazines was to load 124 grain Gold Dot ammo “long” - out to about 1.150 inches so that if the rounds rode forward toward the tapering walls of the 9mm case would be stopped before they became “pinched” between the two creases inside the mag tube.

FMJ ammo because it is longer length, as compared to a shorter hollow point is unaffected and works fine,

As a side not I recently tried the Wilson ETM 9mm Magazine (Officer length). However, the top round hit the ramp very hard and usually jammed in that position.

I have never been satisfied with any of the 10 round magazines for 9mm 1911’s that are marketed by various manufacturers. When using hollow point ammo the top rounds hit the ramp to hard and are sure to eventually jam there.

Hope this is helpful.

Chris

5

I’m looking at my next 1911 being a 9mm CCO. Trading emails with SACS about it.

6

From Wikipedia:

History
The pistol that would eventually be named the Colt Commander was Colt’s Manufacturing Company’s candidate in a U.S. government post-World War II trial to find a lighter replacement for the M1911 pistol that would be issued to officers. Requirements were issued in 1949 that the pistol had to be chambered for 9 mm Parabellum and could not exceed 7 inches in length or weigh more than 25 ounces.[2]

Candidates included Browning Hi-Power variants by Canada’s Inglis and Belgium’s Fabrique Nationale, and Smith & Wesson’s S&W Model 39. Colt entered a modified version of their M1911 pistol that was chambered for 9 mm Parabellum, had an aluminum alloy frame, a short 4.25-inch barrel, and a 9-round magazine. In 1950, Colt moved their candidate into regular production. It was the first aluminum-framed large frame pistol in major production and the first Colt pistol to be originally chambered in 9 mm Parabellum.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Commander

Why so much disdain for it? It’s certainly not a ‘new age twist on an old classic’.

7

Fwiw regarding mags it seems the best thing going are the Tripps. More so than the Wilsons. From what I can gather on the Internets.

8

For a full size gun, Dawson Precision, Metalform or Chip Mcormick, with the integral front ramp, no rear spacer. My favorite right now is the Chip McCormick 10 round but clip off a coil from top of the mag spring.

9

I’ve been through a few 9mm 1911s.

A Springfield Custom Shop, Wilson Combat, STI, and a Para.

NONE of them would ever run 100% long enough to make me feel comfortable using it as a real gun.

I’m a 1911 guy. I’m a fair hand diagnosing and correcting problems in 5" 45s. At one time I had most of the USMC technical manual memorized, and just about everything LAV and Hilton Yam ever said about a 1911 as well. I truly believe, and have the experience to back up my opinion of a proper 5" 45 being more reliable than a Glock 9mm. And I carry a Glock 9mm every day. A 9mm 1911? Nope. COAL just ain’t right and it never will be.

10

If you can stomach reloading, grab a 1911 38 Super and go shoot. My WC 38 Super leaves me nothing to be desired compared to the same gun in 9mm.

11

Browning Hi Power for 9mm.

12

Or the Beretta 92’s.

13

Quoted for future reference.

14

If you don’t want 45, it DOES seem that 38 Super would be the way to go. Plenty more power than 9mm, and ammo is in the .45 Auto ballpark. The power makes every round count. There are more ammo options than one would think:

http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/pistol-ammunition/38-super-auto

15

I really like 1911’s. I own two full size 9mm 1911’s in addition to .45ACP versions. I have been carrying a .45 ACP Kimber Ultra Carry II regularly during cold weather for 15 years. I had considered carrying a 1911 in 9mm for some time, but I picked up a Sig P239 in trade for teaching a pistol class. That is what I carry on occasion during the colder months.

One 1911 I had considered was the Springfield Armory EMP in 9mm. I fired a few hundred rounds through an EMP 1911 at a Springfield Armory demo day held at our local gun club. Fast following shots were easier than with most compact 9mm pistols I have fired. I also watched dozens of other people fire 10 rounds each through the pistol without any problems. I also had an opportunity to fire the EMP on other occasions and was not disappointed.

The 9mm cartridge has developed a great deal over the past 25 years and I would feel confident carrying it as a defensive cartridge. The Speer Gold Dot is what I carry in the P239.

I agree with Mr. Wilson’s statement. I like a lightweight 1911 for a carry weapon and the EMP is high on my list for consideration. I would not rule out one of Mr. Wilson’s pistols.

16

Agree completely. And since I reload, it really doesn’t cost me any more that reloading 9mm. And with today’s ammo, I don’t even worry about power. It’s convenient that a mid-pressure 38 Super load=9mm+P, since I consider Speer Gold Dot 124gr+P to be as much a I need. 38 Super gives that performance pretty easily, so I consider it good enough. As a 45acp 1911 guy, I don’t even consider those 38 Super prices to be bad for off the shelf ammo, especially if you are buying in bulk and reloading the cases. :slight_smile:

I do know individuals with working 9mm 1911s, but I’ve not felt the need to go that route with a 38 Super in my stable.

17

L

I’m thinking this needs to be a Sticky. Thanks for replying with your valuable experience in this area. I will think hard on what you said before converting to a CCO type 1911 in 9MM for carry.

18

The springfield warren operator runs pretty good for a 9mm. I have a Springfield loaded 9mm that the woman loves. It is stupid fun to shoot but I would not ccw it. I am a huge 9mm fan but not in a 1911 for carry/duty.

19

I guess my thinking on this is, even if 9mm 1911’s ran like their big brothers, why would you give up anything that 45 would give you above 9mm to gain maybe one more round? If you’re talking 17 9mms in a Glock 17, vs 8 .45s in a 1911, it’s a no brainer you’re going to go for the G17. If you’re talking 9 or 10 9mms in a 1911 to 8 or 9 .45s in a 1911… I’m sticking with .45 every time.

I will concede that I am bigger and stronger than most, and I don’t feel a discernible difference in shooting performance between the two, but that’s just my .02.

20

I have had occassion, to have had to deploy deadly force with both weapon platforms ( Glock 17 / 9mm 1911). The big heavy, better pointing, 1911 just works better for me -more accurate, faster recovery between rounds, all under circumstances of extreme duress etc. I suspect that all those years of shooting a 1911 sort of hard wired me to it. Also since I wrote that original article several decent 10 round 9mm mags have come out Dawson Precision and Chip McCormick, albeit with a coil or two clipped off the spring. Having said this a 9mm 1911 is high maintenance and requires much set up - a Glock not so much.