I always like to keep my eyes on the guys who run stuff other than an AR in carbine classes. I’ve seen the token SCAR’s and AK’s, and the occasional ACR.
Anybody ever run/seen something a little less conventional in a class?..HK93?..Swiss 55x?..AUG A1?..AR70? Perhaps just for the fun/challenge of it?
I’m not sure if linking to TOS is frowned upon here, if it is my bad.
But, this guy ran a Tavor in a Costa class recently and gives a decent report on it.
I’ve seen people run a variety of guns and gear. Some had work gear that was unusual. Some did so because shaking down gear was part of their job or a sideline. Most were contrarians or victims of marketing wanting to run the latest greatest widget.
If I’m investing time, money, and effort in training I’m going to bring what I use daily. I can always run the drills or a test protocol later with alternates if I need to see how the gear or my shooting stands up.
I couldn’t agree more, but I think there is also something to be said for being able to pick up another platform and be able to use it to some degree, especially if it’s another platform that I have chosen to keep in my stable.
Here’s an example from my personal experience:
My dept. was re-writing several policies including “personally owned long-guns”. They ultimately chose some poor wording regarding “factory built” and “permanently affixed sights”. Thus, my BCM upper on a Colt lower with Troy sights was technically not in line with policy while my stock HK 93 was.
Thus, I ultimately opted to qualify with my HK 93 rather than our department-owned A2 Bushmasters. Not ideal, but I had maintained adequate proficiency over the last 15 years with this rifle to clamp on a Surefire and a VCAS sling and put it to work.
This foolish policy lasted less than 3 months before it was amended, and I went back to an AR. I still break out the 93 when I audit basic carbine classes to observe our new officers.
I’ve run my SCAR 16s and 17s in two consecutive classes now. (Costa and McNamara) I’m not sure that I would consider them exotic, but some do simply because they are not AR’s. If you choose to run something other than an AR be prepared to get some sideways looks when you first show up with something different. Here are some pointers.
1st thing you want to do is tell everyone how much better the platform you have is over the AR. Make sure you say something along the lines of … Well my rifle doesn’t shit where it eats and is AK reliable.
2nd thing you want to do is ask the instructor what he/she thinks of the rifle you brought every hour on the hour. when you do make sure and flash him/her your puppy dog eyes in the hope that he/she will confirm that your rifle is head and shoulders better than anything out there on the market. As they tell you how much better your rifle is they pull out thier personal AR…
3rd anytime you have a stoppage make sure you blame it on anything other than the rifle. It was the ammo, it was the magazine, it was Obama… Make sure you emphisize the fact that you have never ever had an issue till that day in class.
4th make sure you have no idea how to do basic functions such as zeroing or mag changes so that you can not only slow the class down but also get the instructor to show you how that platform really needs to be run even though he has never seen one in his life.
5th last but not least bring no spare rifle or spare parts so that when your rifle goes down the only thing left for you to do is sell your remaining ammo to the other guys in class and go home.
Ok but really if you go to class make sure you are reasonably squared away on what ever platform you choose to bring. Don’t expect anyone to clap you on the back for using something other than an AR.
Does an HK416 count?
I’ve run an FS2000 in a Pat Rogers carbine class and a Austrian Steyr AUGa2 in Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Spartan Tactical classes
As I wrote in another thread, when I ran the AUG and the FS2000 in a class, I had already been shooting the AR for over 20 years and had been to several carbine classes with that platform.
I imagine it would be a huge pain in the ass for the instructor to have a new shooter with a non-AR gun who has not fired it enough.
I also had thousands of rounds through the AUG and the FS2000 before I took either of these to a class.
If you go to a carbine class with a lesser known gun, don’t expect the instructor to know much about it, or to sideline the class to give you personalized attention. You need to figure these out on your own.
When I ran the FS2000 through a carbine class, the gun was relatively in the US market for less than a year and there was no information about it with regards to running the gun. There still isn’t.
You need to remove the captive spring around the firing pin if you want to run any milsurp ammo.
Since the FS2000 does not have drop-free mags, it is very important to push-pull whenever you seat a magazine in the gun. I have found that sometimes it may feel as though the mag is seated when it really isn’t locked in. So you have to give it a good tug.
The biggest functional problem I found with the gun is if not handled correctly the FS2000 has been known to produce doublefeeds. This usually happens when a mag is inserted when the bolt is locked back. Sometimes a bump or a jolt to the gun will result in the bolt jumping free and trying to slam shut. But because the the bolt often does not get a good release or encounters additional drag, the bolt does not close all the way and it doesn’t fully chamber a round. If you try to resolve the situation by pulling the charging handle back and chambering another round, you will wind up getting a doublefeed with two rounds trying to enter the chamber.
The workaround for this is to not insert loaded magazines when the bolt is open. Since the FS2000 does not employ a bolt hold open, this is not an issue when reloading after firing the last round of a mag has been fired. It is more of a range issue when you leave the gun with the bolt locked back for a ceasefire and then insert a magazine when it is time to fire again. I figured this out on my own before I ran took the gun to a class. It was very confusing and irritating until I finally figured out what was going on.
In Pat’s class I had two malfunctions. Once because I rode the bolt forward and it did not go all the way forward because of the drag of my hand on the charging handle. When I racked the charging handle to clear it, I gave myself a doublefeed.
I had another situation in Pat’s class where for whatever reason a case did not eject and got caught on the bolt face so that when the action tried to feed another round I got a doublefeed. This required me to pop the gun apart to clear. If it happened with an AR you would have had to peal the case off the boltface. I believe it was with XM193 ammo.
With the AUG, there are two problems that are often encountered. First, some people have been known to put the gas plug on the wrong setting after reassembling the gun. It doesn’t have clear marks but confusing symbols so you have to make sure you reassemble it correctly and have it on the right gas setting. Don’t have it on the grenade setting otherwise it will be a single shot.
The other factor is to be sure not to slam the bottom of the magazines when you seat them in the gun–especially during bolt-back reloads. A standard push-pull works best. If you slap the bottom you can dislodge a round into the chamber. Then when you release the bolt it will feed another round into the chamber, giving you a doublefeed.
Anyway, things have a way of cropping up in classes even if you have fired a bunch of rounds through the gun. When I took the first class with the AUG I had some issues. After that it ran pretty well.
I try to testfire every new-to-me magaine that I intend to use in a class. Somehow, I managed to mix an untested mag in with the rest and I had a feeding issue within the first magazine that I ran in Larry’s class. He certainly didn’t let me forget it.
pfft…I’m not selling my ammo. I’m taking it along with me and my broken Century (AK, FAL, C93…take your pick) when I go home with my tail between my legs.
Just wondering if any “niche” collectors have gone against the grain and put a “safe queen” or atypical design to use.
I suppose it could, but I have all the info I need on how they run.
I ran my sbr amd65 for super dave Harrington class.
It was nice being the only guy without any rifle problems.
SUPER was colored impressed.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
I’ve used a Garand in class before. I keep a Garand as a car/travel gun sometimes, so it wasn’t done just to play.
It wasn’t bad, and probably easier to use than some might think. It reminded me a lot of using a shotgun, actually, with the ammo and recoil management.
Next class I take, I’ll probably use the AUG or SCAR 17 since I’ve been spending most of my time with them.
Edit- I guess I’ve already done that. I had a one-day (night) low light/night carbine class this winter and used the AUG and SCAR.
I’d make a distinction between less-common and exotic, and the definitions vary by region, class, and enrollment.
I don’t care what students around me run, as long as it doesn’t bog down the class. Know the gun you brought and how to perform basic operations with it. Have at least a basic level of proficiency. If you have something uncommon, be able to support and repair it yourself and/or bring a spare.
Just my 5.45 AR. Never missed a beat except with 3 bad C Products mags in a Defoor class. Kept up with everything else on reliability and accuracy. Good thread.
This.
In a class, it only makes sense to run your go-to-gun.
In a competition, it’s fun to run a second gun or go exotic for the day.
Ill be using my amd65 as my forever rifle.over twenty cases of ak ammo is an atestament of my faith in the 7.62 rd.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
If I ever get around to getting the paddle mag release installed on my HK93, I have always wanted to take it through an AK class. The manual of arms for the HK93 and AK are pretty similar (i.e. mag changes, no bolt hold open, etc.) so I figure it wouldn’t really slow up the class.
The next Carbine class I go to I will definitely be bringing along my MR762 to run through at least a portion of the drills.
I ran a Galil in Clint Smiths urban rifle class years ago… Ran like a champ and never cleaned it for the whole course… Heavy bitch though.
Plan to use an FS2000 this summer in a carbine class. Will have a Hartford built AR in the trunk if the Belgian armament doesn’t work.
One day I’d like to run a Skorpion in a subgun class or something.
M1 Carbine.
You have run one or you would like/intend to?