True. Getting the bipod closer to the muzzle stabilizes the gun better than a rearward placement and leaves room for the hand on the HG.
Further, once you stick on your various IR lasers and illuminators, light, and inline NOD, there isn’t much room to place the support hand or to use a supported position. Longer handguards give you more usability and better protect the barrel from lateral pressure in such positions.
The advantages of a longer freefloated HG outweigh the minimal weight penalty. Build the gun the way you want, around your needs, but you might be limiting yourself without knowing it.
If you’re a weight Nazi, then I think you’re going down the wrong path with trying to shave ounces if you’re going with a stainless barrel, which is inherently heavier. Quality hammer-forged chrome barrels such as BCM and Daniel Defense are surprisingly accurate, more durable, and would be my choice. Even my Spikes LE barrel surprised me with its accuracy
While match ammo may help the average issue M4, M16, or a standard civilian chrome-lined 5.56 chambered 16" AR-15 achieve better accuracy, it doesn’t figure into to the Recce concept. Here’s another edition of ‘Wes From MSTN says…’
(from the all-knowing and always correct oracle that is wikipedia)
According to Wes Grant of M.S.T.N. a premiere small arms builder, these weapons were initially built in-house with the only specifications being the ability to shoot any 5.56 x 45 mm cartridge in inventory (at the time this included the first iterations of the 77-grain (5 g) Mk 262 Mod 0 cartridge), and that the weapon have a barrel 16 inches (406 mm) in length.
Ammo wasn’t a consideration when the Recce Rifle was conceived. It was just intended to be a compact rifle with better accuracy potential than the issue M4. And yes - the concept has gotten pretty trick in the custom build civilian realm. Perhaps one of the best ‘tricks’ being the departure from the standard 5.56 NATO chamber to one of several different match-type chambers.
But on the ammo front, the Recce rifle was the basis for the SPR program. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think there was a round developed for use specifically with the US Navy Mk 12 SPR.
I lumped your two weight issues in one quote, SMA. And no, I’m not picking on you. I just find your comments to be interesting and thought-provoking.
A heavier barrel profile will be stiffer and have better heat sinking abilities than a thinner barrel. The heavier barrel profile used on a Recce concept was a simple step toward improving mechanial accuracy potential, and maintaining that accuracy potential as much as possible during a frequent or sustained fire incident (maybe).
As far as longer handguards go, not only do they offer more real estate for attaching whatever accessories and using the Magpul/extended arm technique, but they can offer a larger area on which you can rest the rifle and they provide protection for the gas block.
Sort of off-topic, but if you’re a weight Nazi, you might enjoy perusing the AR-15 Upper Receiver Weight Comparisons posted at the 03DesignGroup website: http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/ar15-upper-receiver-weight-comparisons. Granted, it is comprised of uppers available from BCM, but it is interesting stuff, nonetheless.
This was my first AR. Noveske SS Recon barrel, DD 9.0 Lite Rail & MUR 1A. I sold it off because I’m an idiot. The gun was crazy accurate, but it was heavy due to the barrel profile. Thinking back, I’m not sure why I went for the shorter rail and if I had to do it again I would use a 12" DD or a rifle length URX II.
Marketing. Also, “recce” is slang, while “Recon” is the official name. Notice the stainless Noveske 16" is called a “Recon” (I have that rifle).
To be fair, the only person I know of who’s built true recon clones is Wes @ MSTN. If the barrel isn’t a 16", heavy-profile, 1/8" twist with a carbine gas system, it isn’t a true recon rifle. This means every “recce” out there is called so incorrectly.
However, the whole point of the recon rifle was a super-accurized M4. The Navy SEALS requested such a weapon and Crane gave them the SPR. They didn’t like the SPR, so they sent it back to Crane, who made it into a smaller 16" package. The Recon is truly a miniature SPR (albeit with less range) that can perform in a CQC role as well. The only debate is which role comes first.
That said, you can use different gas systems, sights, stocks, etc; but using anything other than a stainless barrel defeats the entire purpose of the Recon rifle program. I won’t say you can’t call it a Recon rifle (or Recon-like), but you have to understand why it was developed to see where it would be useful. A 16" CMV m4gery is simply an M4 that can reach out another 100yds, if that. There’s no gain, aside from velocity, from the extra 1.5" of barrel.
That is why Recon rifles (or clones of them) should have stainless barrels, if they’re being built to the intent of the original design. Hope that explains it.
THREE BIG CRITERIA for Trident82’s Seal Recon Rifle:
16" SS match grade barrel
12" PLUS F-F rail
Mid-powered ranging optic…1-4x, 2.5-10x, 3-9x.
Like Skyyr seems to be pretty avid of the whole SS vs CHF/CL barrel aspect, my biggest stickler is the use of REALLLY long rails on true PRECISION based Recce Rifles.
These guns should blow away a traditional M4/Carbine using a traditional m4 cut CL 14.5" barrel in terms of accuracy…somebody mentioned that basically any m4/AR w. match ammo can shoot moa…could not disagree more with that and if that is true than they are counting 3 rd. groups as the military never designed the basic m4 carbine to be any more accurate than 2-3moa running quality ammo.
This is one of my concerns. My SPR is crazy heavy; I want a lighter, more compact companion piece. Which leads me to:
How did that rifle balance? I’m planning on the same reciever/barrel/handguard/stock combo. I got a UBR, but it just seems too heavy to put on a 5.56 rifle, but might use it if needed to balance the rifle out…though I’d rather make it as light as possible.
But I don’t know how many home-built Recce-type rifles have pinned gas blocks. I didn’t pin my gas block. I thought about doing it, but decided not to. Maybe on the next one.
I had the same setup, except for an 11" rail - it did not balance well at all. It was very muzzle heavy. I had to switch to a UBR, which balanced it MUCH better.
So am I only one who has no clue who those gents on the RIB are…moreover what the heck kinda guns they are sporting???
Hell, I will say it…That lead gun looks like the biggest POS ive seen and there is no damn way that any member of the specops community would be packing what appears to be a nasty fluting job on the barrel, an even worse looking rail which looks identical to the china UTG aluminum models, and his IR unit and whatever type scope looks straight up airsoft imho. Those nerdy airsoft folks take that ghey stuff super serious and I would not put it past one of their ghey affairs to take action shots posing as some kinda elite amphibous force.
Sorry, stared at that pic since it was posted hoping I would not be the first to have to stat how incorrect everything looks in it.
I had the same initial thoughts, just not sure how old the photo is or who the team in question is, so I’m holding off judgment until some IP’s can chime in.
