This thread brings to mind the issue of keeping things on-track in the technical forums, and what exactly constitutes on-track.
Personally, I would prefer to see discussions of why Mark Larue is a douchebag, why you shouldn’t buy Leatherman/Ruger/S&W products because of their past politics, etc. kept out of the technical forums. If people cannot separate the product from the person then it seems to me that the discussion of the person is not “technical” and as such belongs in the General Discussion section, for which the description reads “Current Events, News, Politics, etc.”
Yes, no, maybe? It would be nice to be able to discuss the actual products themselves without the personal politics coming into play.
I was recently at a meeting with a group of LE instructors, and the topic of reading firearm boards to stay up to date on items came up. A few different names were mentioned, and M4C came up. The response from multiple instructors was that M4C used to be a good place, but that it had gone downhill. The primary reason given was the board allowance for badmouthing and name calling whatever posters didn’t like. The issue was that these were common place, and that the comments had no bearing on the discussion. To have to wade through a thread based on people bad mouthing an item who had no actual experience with it or idea what they were talking about was considered unacceptable.
Comments bad mouthing ARMS and Spikes Tactical that were nothing more name calling were considered prime examples the board not being a professional resource. There was another example given that I can’t recall.
There is a difference between someone giving information in a thread that relates to the topic, and someone jumping in for no reason to bad mouth a company they don’t like or don’t have experience with.
IMHO the tech forums allow far to much of the above, and evidently there are other professionals that see it that was as well.
I’ve always kind of felt that new members should be required to reiterate the gist of rob_s’ “A Qualified Opinion” thread to a moderator or staff member before gaining the ability to post.
Would that be a good thing in practice? I don’t know. For the majority of the new membership it certainly would be, but I don’t know how some of the experts that are new to the board would feel about going through that.
It’s certainly a lot worse lately. I worried when I saw an ad in SWAT, and at some point the old guard can’t self moderate every single thread for BS. ETA:I understand the need to grow the board, both to stay relevant and keep advertisers happy.
On the flip side, I don’t think M4C should go all out like Lightfighter either.
Now, I am relatively new here but I have to agree! I think it would be good to not alow new members to post until they had been a member like 30 days (?) or had x number of thread views (can that be tracked/specified?). That would not have bothered me at all; personally I did not post an opinion until I had experience with x product and I also gave myself time to “marinate” in the culture and understand the weapon platform a little before I posted much in the way of opinions.
I also think it might be good to have the moderators “approve” new threads especially and maybe the first 6-12 posts of members who have been here less than 90 days (?).
Also, would it help to sub divide some of the more newbie questions/threads so they can be found easier (like a “newbie forum”) since most don’t think of searching and sometimes the search engine here has hiccups? I know the General AR Discussion is supposed to serve here but may be it would keep the riff-raff questions and bitching to a minimum. Just a thought! Just trying to offer solutions from a newer member’s perspective. I think they should “marinate” a little because posting should be a privilege not a right…especially when there are folks here with combined hundreds of years of experience; we should listen (read) more and talk (type) less!
Question for site staff: is M4C using vB’s infraction annex?
I’m a long time co-mod on a very large music forum where we have never-ending problems with bad actors and trolls. To combat this in an objective way that takes up a minimum amount of time we started using the infraction annex a few years back. It helps us keep a lid on things.
Basically, predetermined point loads are set up for various types of infractions (trolling, commercial spam, fighting, general douchebaggery, etc.) and the mods can quickly infract individual posts. An infraction causes an automatic PM to be sent to the user to tell them of the action. Once a user’s point load reaches a certain point the board automatically bans the user for a set period of time; once you pass a particular number of points it’s permanent.
Maybe this would be a way of improving the S/N ratio?
…but as far as the forums go, that’s a requirement.
To be honest, threads like “Mark LaRue is a douchebag” have zero place on M4Carbine.net.
The mods and staff here at M4C are generally busy people with at least one full time job, families, various civic and social commitments, and occasionally we even manage to find time to get to the range and shoot. As the forum has grown it’s become increasingly difficult for mods/staffers to keep up with what is going on in every thread in every forum. Sometimes we may miss things, and sometimes we just may not have run into them yet because we’re busy with other things. Personally speaking there are forums on this site I never venture into because my hands are full dealing with the forums I’m responsible for modding.
If you see something you think we’ve missed, by all means use the report feature or IM a mod/staffer and let them know that something is rotten in Denmark. We’ll be more than happy to look into it and, if necessary, crush offending accounts mercilessly.
It’s always going to be a challenge trying to balance the desire to be a resource for the people on the highest level and yet remain open to the ordinary joe just off the street looking for information. It’s likely that from time to time our attempt to strike that balance will not meet with the approval of one or either of those groups. While some of that is inevitable, I think we can crush the majority of it.
So I’ll go on record here asking for your help in policing the forums. If you see something that looks out of place or out of bounds, by all means feel free to contact a mod/staffer and let them know. I think I can say with great certainty that the rest of the guys take reports from members seriously and we do what we can to resolve problems. Sometimes response may not be instant because we solicit input from other mods/staffers/primary players/etc, but stuff is happening even if it’s not visible to everybody.
Ideally people would keep stuff on track and stick to technical discussions in the technical forums voluntarily…but if it takes putting on the riot gear and busting some heads…well…we can do that too.
As far as overall tenor of the forums go, we don’t want to be needlessly hostile to the new or the uniformed lest this become a board of a small group of people with personality problems chatting amongst themselves about how awesome they are…but neither do we want to become the tactical equivalent of karaoke night at the Marietta, Ohio Holiday Inn bar. There’s a happy medium and I think most of our members understand that. If you identify someone who doesn’t get it, we’ll be more than happy to educate them.
There are a few boards that people don’t like simply for the fact they areinternally moderated and policed.
While not as bad as AR15.com, this place often looks like a kindergarten.
“This guy’s a douchebag” kind of threads have no business on technical forums – you either like the hardware or you don’t. Comment about whether or not the gear works, works as claimed, or as advertised, or on the company’s business practices or lack of customer service. Anything else (especially not notifying the guy you’re potentially allowing folks to slander) is bullshit.
You can wonder all you want, but there are places where some industry professionals just plain refuse to visit or post on.
So I think the message is… If we enjoy having intelligent discussions and IPs/SMEs chiming in, every member needs to step up and A)make sure his own input is intelligent and professional, and B)tutor/report those who aren’t getting it before it becomes a larger problem.
I still think the qualified opinion thread(or a new locked post from a moderator/staffer should at least be stuck up top on the tech forums.
We would prefer that discussions about an owners polital views to remain either off the forum or stay in the GD.
M4C is and most likely will always be one of the best sources for technical discussions. No other forum attracts more “A” list SME’s and IP’s. No other forum goes out it’s ways to protect them as well. We have banned more people than we can count for not respecting a SME or IP.
We are also the most moderated (meaning rules enforced) forum with close to 30,000 members on the net. Forums with more moderation Than us typically have well under 5,000 members with no more than 100-200 active members. It is easy to moderate forums like this. Not so with one this size.
It is true that as we grow we pick up more new members and industry trolls. We have to keep in mind that we all started not knowing anything. Forums live and die by their new members. It is our job to keep their questions focused and going down the right paths.
The mods and staff on here some of the best around, both in their technical knowledge and their commitment to the forum. They are very active and do the best they can, but cannot be everywhere. So if anyone sees a bad thread, feel free to notify a mod or staff member about it.
Back just after the first of the year I had some personal issues arise which required that I spend more time at work and less time on the internet. I quit posting not just to this forum but to any forums of which I was a member.
Only recently has my time freed up and I again began frequenting this site.
I was surprised at just how much the tone and the atmosphere seems to have changed within M4C to that of a more aggressive/Argumentative nature.
I believe that this is still the best site on the net for Firearms related information…period. And I give kudo’s to the Moderators for all the time amd effort they put into keeping it so.
older members are growing more irritated with the dumbness of some of the newer members… TOS-like dumbness. so they’re responding with TOS-like meanness.
what you end up with is TOSness.
i think a lot of the TOSness could be avoided by making it clearer to new members that this site is a very technical resource, and that the members here are above the curve. i think more emphasis would cause people to police themselves a little better, as nobody likes to look like a fool. maybe the “welcome, new member” PM should start with bold, red font that makes this emphasis.
the older members need to remember not to respond to dumbness with meanness. i’ve been guilty of this. i’ve also deliberately not posted because i knew it could only lead to condescension and hostility. such as a couple threads started just today (twitch twitch).
STAFF wrote:
“Forums live and die by their new members. It is our job to keep their questions focused and going down the right paths.”
bkb0000 wrote:
“the older members need to remember not to respond to dumbness with meanness.”
I’m a primary admin on a large site. It’s international with a wide age group and language barrier. It’s a guitar instruction site. Not exactly the same gravity as here where poor advice might mean the difference between life and death but the two comments above mirror what I have experienced.
I’ve had to solve quite a few situations but by far and away, when everyone got it through their heads that the “Report to Moderator” button actually solved problems to everyone’s benefit, things went a whole lot more smoothly. We have very few issues now.
I used the report post button a few minutes ago, and literally within three or four minutes the situation was solved.
I think it will be important to not overwhelm the moderators(whom as stated are already pretty heavily loaded,) but when appropriate it works as advertised.
When I started the new Leatherman thread I was posting it to show off a new product and get people’s take/thoughts on said product. I had no idea the maker’s bio/political stance would come into play. That makes absolutely no sense to me. I agree with Rob, take that stuff to the General Forum or PM someone about it. I don’t need to sift through someone’s bias/feelings about a person when I am just trying to find out if their product is useful/rock solid. Just my 2 cents.
Just trying to offer solutions from a newer member’s perspective. I think they should “marinate” a little because posting should be a privilege not a right…especially when there are folks here with combined hundreds of years of experience; we should listen (read) more and talk (type) less!