An un-qualified opinion - (discussion)

…is of less value than a qualified one.

This statement has caused me some problems on various forums when asking for people’s frame of reference, past experience, actual experience, or other qualifiers to an opinion.

Someone posts that “this class was amazing!”, yet when pressed admits that the only other class they ever had was the two hour lecture at the gun show to get their CWP.

Someone posts “I love my XYZ carbine!”, yet eventually concedes that they have had the thing for 3 years and are still on the first case of ammo they bought with the gun.

Someone posts “the ABC bolt-on made by XYZ is the best!”, but come to find out that they’ve never even laid hands on one, let alone used one.

Which isn’t to say that these opinions are completely worthless, so long as they are properly qualified.

If the guy in example one said “I’ve never taken any training before, but this instructor really took the time to walk the new guys through and I absolutely loved the experience”, then others that are new to training could perhaps put themselves in his shoes and figure out that this might be a class they would be interested in.

If the guy in example two just fessed up to the relatively low round count, and the virtual lack of experience with the gun, perhaps someone else with a similar intended use could benefit from the opinion and save $200 over buying more gun than they “need”.

If the guy in example three just admitted that he got the information off the internet, but said “I’ve never used an ABC from XYZ, but both Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers have posted on various forums that they love them” (and preferably provide links to those posts), then at least they’re sort of shifting the qualifier to someone else, and providing the resource where someone could go and ask questions of Pat and Larry to further their inquiries.

Yes, contrary to what your mommy and your third grade teacher told you, while everyone may be entitled to their opinion, some opinions are of less value than others.

When seeking advice on the internet, you need to include two things:

  1. What do you intend to do with the product? Whether you are asking about Jeep parts, rifles, electronics, sex toys, whatever, if you leave out what you want to do with it, you could wind up with suggestions for a ball gag when what you really want is a sybian (google it if you don’t know what it is). TELL US WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH THE ITEM IN QUESTION. What optic someone suggests will depend on whether you want to defend your barricaded family in your home or pop prairie dogs at 800 yards.

  2. What is your frame of reference? If you’re asking for suggestions on a new product, and you’ve already owned 3 of the competitive products, let people know that so they can save time and streamline their advice. If you’re asking about 123 because you’ve already tried ABC and didn’t like it, then say so. That way the people that prefer ABC can save themselves the trouble of suggesting it. If you’re asking about a class to take, post your previous training experience as it will have an impact on what people recommend.

When reading advice on the internet, you need to make sure of two things:
1) Does the advice-giver have any real frame of reference for their opinions? If they don’t post their qualifiers, or get upset when asked to, then you can pretty easily discount their opinion. Make sure that the guy posting on the other end actually has some kind of experience to back up his opinion, or at least tells you that he has none.

  1. Does the advice-giver share your frame of reference? While cops can learn from non-LE, and civilians can learn from soldiers, and soldiers can learn from competition shooters, there are times when the needs of someone in a role different from yours may not translate well to your needs. Make sure that you understand where the other person is coming from, their application and level of experience, and that you understand how their frame of reference translates to your own.

When offering advice on the internet, you should do two things:
1) Post your qualifiers. “I love my XYZ” is an absolutely useless post. It helps nobody, does nothing but strokes your own ego, and chances are you are only actually recommending the only brand/model/example/version of the thing that you have ever even seen in person. Stop it. There is nothing wrong with posting an opinion based largely in ignorance, but own up to it. Say “I bought an XYZ as my first AR and I’ve put x# of trouble-free rounds through it”. Don’t say “flawless”. Please. For the children.

  1. Post your frame of reference. If you use your rifle as a PMC in Iraq, say so. If you use your rifle for competitive shooting, say so. If you use your rifle as an LE patrol rifle, say so. While there may be some carryover, oftentimes there isn’t. Preferably you should ascertain what it is that the other guy is planning on doing with his XYZ, and then qualify whatever advice you give based on same.

Good stuff Rob. I have always painted the below scenario as to how and why people end up with crap AR’s (or guns in general).

OP: Who makes the best AR?
Poster #1: BM
Poster #2: Oly
Poster #3: DPMS
OP: Thanks guys for the reference.
—Couple days go by----

OP: Well I just bought my first AR!!! I went to my local gun shop and they had TONS of BM’s, OLY’s and DPMS. The guy working the counter said that they were all the best, mil-spec AR’s and they all have .Mil contracts. So I picked the one with the nicest finish. :smiley: I am going to the range tonight to see how she shoots!
–Next day—

OP: WOW does this AR shoot well. I shot all the all ammo I bought and not a single JAM! Fantastic reliability. I don’t know why people say that this brand of AR’s is not reliable.

—2 weeks go by—

New OP: Does anyone have experience with DPMS AR’s?
Old OP: Mine is great! I have shot a lot of ammo through it and not a single jam. By far the best AR I have owned!

The cycle continues…

I know that some people are going to read my scenario above and ask what is wrong with it? Here is what is wrong:

  1. The OP never asked the responders to his thread how long they have owned their AR, how many AR’s they own, how many rounds they have fired and if they run their AR’s through carbine schools.
  2. The OP went to his gun club and slow fired (as that is all that is allowed) 100rds of 55gr ammo. (lacks serious round count via shooting schools)
  3. This is the first AR that the OP has ever owned (lacks experience).
  4. The OP believes that he is an experienced AR shooter and his opinion is worth a lot.

C4

Well put Rob.

Now if we could just make it mandatory reading before posting, well it could save some people a lot of trouble.

I also feel if you REALLY don’t have a lot of experience/firsthand knowledge, PLEASE do NOT argue (especially repeatedly) with those who obviously work and play on these platforms for a living and out of passion. It only makes you look bad/ignorant.

People like me who don’t have a lot of exp in these fields yet, can waste a lot of time wading thru some of the examples of what Rob posted above. If you came here to learn like me and don’t know or have the experience, then just read and learn. Some times it can be hard for a newbie like me to wade thru the “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bull”. Or like my FFL said, “Nothing wrong with XYZ’s, a lot of people have one”. Just because a lot of people have crap does not mean crap is good. Yes I am one of those that did NOT do my research first, and bought an “XYZ” first. Well it didn’t do me any harm, but I didn’t put much down range with it, so I didn’t feel qualified to rate it EITHER way. But after reading here and seeing who doe’s what, and can back it up, I took a good look at what I had and saw were it was lacking in quality by what I read here to look for, posted by those who could back it up with good pics, and good links to read for myself.

To all the professionals here, I thank you for your input and hope you continue.

Old Gramps, trying to learn new and right.


(I sold my Cow, so I don’t need your Bull)

Good post rob_s and C4. I have been around this business for a long time and things change, but many stay the same. The mis-information that flies around gun shops, gun shows and gun forums runs deep. It is always a breath of fresh air to see info posted by people in the know like we see here.

It might get more attention from the newcomers if this was relabeled “Please read before posting or reading threads on this forum”.

As Gramps said before thanks to all the pro’s who spend their valuable time on this forum.

You are welcome. There are a lot of “pro’s” on this forum, but Rob and I are not one of them. :smiley:

Rob is most likely tired of people (that own one AR, have never attended a training class and shoot 100rds a month) telling him that he knows nothing about AR’s. I run into the same type of thing. I build AR’s for a living (and most likely train more than a lot people) and am still told that I know nothing. It gets old after awhile.

C4

I showed my ass a while ago in response to rob jumping on someone about the things in his post above. After his explanation/education I understood where he was coming from. This sort of quality control is required to keep this forum from becoming like “others”. I appreciate all the information from everyone here, it is truly vast. One could/should spend 6 months and never have to post a question and likely get all of their questions answered. This speaks volumes of the community here. I’m glad to be a part of it and will maintain my lane. :cool:

Great post and very well written. Sometimes silence is golden…

only thing I have to add. This should be a sticky in every section of the forum since it pertains universally.

good post, a ball gag would never do if you really wanted a sybian:D

Agree that this ought to be mandatory reading, as we all could do with a reminder from time to time, no matter where we happen to fall on the experience and credibility line.

Rob’s primer really captures the underlying philosophy behind the success of this forum, and it is precisely that difference that makes M4CN a worthy destination – when so many others simply aren’t.

Chief

'Tis one of the reasons I only lurk here. I’m about to start my first AR build, so I have absolutely nothing to contribute at the moment except secondhand knowledge which is plentiful on the great interwebs anyway.

I’d rather sit here with my trap shut and ears open.

This is an important point.

I wrote what I did the way that I did because I don’t want to discourage ANYONE from posting. No matter how experienced, or inexperienced, you are it is pretty certain that at least someone out there is in your same situation but is six months behind you and can learn form what you’ve screwed up along the way. :smiley:

Everyone should be able to post regardless of level of experience, but everyone should be clear about that level.

How nice it is to hear someone that is learning to realize that they are much better served observing.

C4

Great post Rob. In a nutshell, “stay in your lane.”

[/QUOTE][QUOTE=C4IGrant;220770]You are welcome. There are a lot of “pro’s” on this forum, but Rob and I are not one of them. :smiley:

Rob is most likely tired of people (that own one AR, have never attended a training class and shoot 100rds a month) telling him that he knows nothing about AR’s. I run into the same type of thing. I build AR’s for a living (and most likely train more than a lot people) and am still told that I know nothing. It gets old after awhile.

C4

There are a lot of “pro’s” on this forum, and Rob and I are just two of them. (Fixed that for you.)

As far as " IT GETS OLD AFTER A WHILE ", THANKS for being patient and not giving up. There are those of us who are just starting (And everyone starts at the bottom) that REALLY do appreciate what those like your selves, who have the experience and knowledge share it with us.

Don’t get me wrong, there are those here who like someone said are not “Pros”, but have some knowledge and exp to share and that as well is greatly appreciated too.

A little clarification can go a long way.

PLEASE, NO ONE TAKE ROBS POST THE WRONG WAY . We all can at times have something to offer, with a little clarification.

Thanks EVERYONE.

+1 For m4carbine.net!

Was thinking of posting that too, but thought that it might be copyrighted by LF or something. :wink:

It also doesn’t go far enough. Both advice requestors and givers need to be clear in their frame of reference.

Additionally “staying in your lane” applies to many subjects…and therefor, most people.

Sometimes the “experts” in one area have an aversion to the concept that they have any lanes to remain in, regardless of the subject at hand…as evidenced here and other boards from time to time.

Knowing the limits of your experience and knowledge and having the humility to admit it is by no means relegated to the discussing of tactical shooting and related equipment.

It’s a theme many could and should take to heart, yet many do not.

The subject of asking for, or dispencing of advice on the interweb should be taken with several grains of salt right from the get go. Credibility is far too often requested by some folks who frankly are rather mediocre people.

M4C has done a pretty good job of thinning the herd and keeping the SME’s in blue.

The other knowledgable folks make themselves evident…over time. Rob obviously has some solid information to share as does Grant, among others.

Interesting thread. I’ve always maintained that caveat emptor pretty much solves the issue under discussion, but it’s interesting nonetheless.

Personally, I’ve been exposed to many things, have meaningful experience in some and can offer true expertise in a few – and I’m here because these forums’ raison d’etre isn’t among my areas of expertise.

So I’m here purely to learn; others are here to contribute and exchange experience as well. Most of us are here to do something other than to exercise our egos, and we act like it. Those who aren’t (and don’t) won’t be instructed by this thread.

No disrespect intended, Rob.

Also when asking question on a forum please respond when someone asks for clarification on your question.

I don’t know how many times I have seen a post where someone would seek advice and not respond to questions from other posters.

And am still very much humbled when I see a technical discussion going on that makes me feel uninformed. I just read and sit on my hands even though I am on my 3rd AR in 10 years. There are threads I wish I could participate in but to do so would only make me ’ change lanes ’ which is not why I open this thread every day whether I want to or not. I can learn something from the ‘pros’ and those more experienced than I and by wasting their time debating with them is an insult to their knowledge and experience.
I get involved with what I do know about and generally feel like I am walking on thin ice. Most here probably couldn’t tell me anything about what I do for a living so I dont try to tell them about what they do for their paychecks, but for the most part I wish I did what they do and you know who you are.
Thanks for all the wisdom over the past couple of years, you guys mean more to me than I can say.

Michael