An equipment dilemma for a poor man

Training Training and Tactics
1

Greetings all. After lurking and reading for the past week or so, I decided that this would be a good place to get advice on a dilemma I am having.

I will finally have enough pennies saved up that I will be able to attend a carbine training class this fall. I’ve had an AR since '04 and now I want to go from a guy who owns a carbine to a guy who owns and has been instructed on the use of one.

Right now my rifle is a 16" Bushmaster Superlight A3 with an entry stock. I purchased it in the Spring of '04 so it is in neutered condition. It also came with an ARMS #40 flip up rear sight and an Aimpoint Comp ML2.

There are things I don’t like about the rifle as it stands right now. The most important is the stock. It is just too short for me as I have long arms and I don’t wear body armor. I was thinking I want to go with a collapsible and I’ve heard good things about the Magpul CTR. Since I don’t already have a tube for an adjustable, I’d go with the Milspec version which can be had with the tube, spring, and buffer for ~$150. I’d either have to pay to have it done or buy the tool to do it which would add to the cost.

I believe the front sight post also needs to be replaced with the taller version. I don’t think Bushy’s came with the proper front sight post back then.

Picking up a spare bolt which is going to run about ~$50.

The rifle currently has about 300 rounds through it. It has run just fine thus far but I wouldn’t expect to have any issues with such a low round count either. So before the class, I’d want to put at least 500 more rounds through it. With 5.56mm going for ~$300-350 per 1K I am looking at another $600-700 in ammo to get me ready and through the class.

To sum it up, I am looking at $525-575 just to get ready for the class with the AR plus another $300-350 for ammo for the class.

The other options I was looking at was picking up an Interarms Polish Tantal in 5.45mm and using that for the class. I am looking at about $650 to get the rifle in my hands. Ammo is currently going for as low as $119 for 1080 rounds or about $250 for two cases which would give me enough ammo to make sure the gun is running right and enough for the class.

Money wise, either option will cost about the same to get through the class.

Now the pros and cons as I see them.

AR Pro’s:

The majority if not all of the class with be using them. From what I understand most instructors have loners if yours goes down for the count. Having your own stash of 5.56 with allow you to continue on.

AR Con’s:

After the class, ammo cost will make it much more expensive to practice what you have learned.

AK Pro’s:

Ammo cost is low so you can afford to practice almost three times as much dollar for dollar vs 5.56mm.

AK Con’s:

If the AK should happen to go down, you’re more than likely SOL because the chances of another 5.45mm rifle being available for loan is very remote.

Money is an object so what would you all do if you were in my position?

2

My take is this.

Get the stock, replace the stock. You can get the RRA stock wrench for $6 from Brownells. If I was changing stocks for a living I wouldn’t use this wrench, but doing one or two should be fine. At $6 it should be a non-issue in terms of added cost. If you want to get really serious, get yourself a Starrett automatic center punch for $27 while you’re at it. Stock, tools, and shipping should be about $200. Look here to see how the stock staking should look when you’re done.

Get a complete BCG, not just the bolt. I like these, these and these. Either way, it’s another $130.

I wouldn’t worry about the front sight, just get yourself a spare Aimpoint battery just in case and be done. If you’re really adamant about the post, I think they’re a $5 part.

With 300 rounds through the gun and the above parts/spares, I would be comfortable going to most classes. Many instructors have spare loaner guns (I know Pat Rogers does) and oftentimes there are other students that will loan you their spare rifle if yours goes down permanently. I’ve offered others my guns (both short and long) in the past.

If you are worried about ammo costs, buy yourself a .22 upper for $550, 3 spare mags for another $100, and have an extremely inexpensive way to practice. 5k rounds for $200 makes it almost 1/10th the cost of 5.56 and 1/5th the cost of 5.45 ammo. The upper & mags pays for itself with the first 5k round order of ammo.
Upper, 3 mags, 5k rounds of .22LR = $550+$100+$200 = $850
5k rounds 5.45 = $900

3

I would take Robs Answer for $500… it’s pretty good…

Don’t get wrapped around the axle on everything…

A stock is a pretty personnel thing with an AR… get one you like and are comfortable with. I have both the CTR and the SOPMOD and like them both very much. having adjustably is a good thing.

You ponying up for a class is one of the smartest things you could have done… Now you will finally learn what all of us learned… which is how much we don’t know about shooting an AR…:wink:

You will learn plenty and then come back and start to practice the things you learned and you will be ahead of 90% of the average AR owners… (The other 10% are here…)

And you will have a chance to try other folks gear and optics ,etc,

4

Thank you Rob_s for your reply. Is there a .22 upper that you would recommend?

Harv: Thanks. I’ve been wanting to go to one for a few years now but this year is the first year that I’ll have the money set aside to do it.

5

hey laqadelphia I feel your pain, i’m going to my first pistol and carbine class in April and I am struggling with some of the same issue’s.

  1. will my Olyarms k3b hold up as I have no spare: and their rep sux bigtime.
    *so I am taking an 7.62x39 Romy ak or an m90a Yugo ak in .223
  2. what gear to take as I have no chest rig yet but trying to save for one
    *I have a cheap utg tac vest that I got b4 I learned better…:stuck_out_tongue: :rolleyes:
  3. trying to save for ammo: I am an ak man but my wife like’s the ar so I have to stock both!
  4. have to have a good pistol so I got a cz 75b; it’s awesome.
  5. try and save a G for both courses plus travel expenses to get to my “shoot school” destination.
  6. since I have cheapo optics: optic/no optic or what optic of high quality for “shoot school”!
    *this is my first ar I should say.
    so don’t feel alone in this but I know i’m gonna enjoy myself and learn alot at both courses. When “uncle sugar” pay’s me back my money I hope to get a cmmg bargain bin ar for primary and send the Olyarms to backup.:cool:
6

Have you been surfing the various gun boards “For Sale” sections? You should be able to find, with a little patience and work, any part from any maker for your AR. I would suggest you surf those sections and look for a bargin. Since your budget is limited, this method is sure to stretch your budget.

Just a thought.

M_P

7

You may find, after some instruction, that the entry stock you already have will work fine.

Most recreational shooters (hunters and hi-power types) along with the military still teach the traditional rifle stance where you stand at an angle to your target and place the butt of the rifle in the shoulder pocket.

This is great for heavy recoil and bullseye accuracy, but not the best for dynamic shooting with low recoil weapons.

Most top AR instructors teach a squared-off stance. Stand square to the target and bring the rifle into beneath your dominate side eye. Don’t move your head. This will usually put the rifle butt on your collar bone just a little off from your sternum.

In this stance, an A2 buttstock is way too long - even in a t-shirt. Without straining, your nose should be at the charging handle. This will help control recoil for follow-up shots and enable you to better address targets throughout your frontal arc.

I shoot mine with the stock fully collapsed in all but a traditional prone position.

Your entry stock would work fine. I agree with the other mods, though.

8

Irresistible hijack:

Squared-off stance with an AR? How many is “most top instructors”? Not LAV, I can tell you. Bladed is for AR, squared is for MP5. In my regular deputy uniform, stylish polyester of course, and protective vest, the buttplate inevitably slides outboard almost to the shoulder joint, so I’m bladed whether I like it or not. For me, keeping the Vltor stock at 4 out of 5 works for all positions.

Highpower shooters also stand bladed for offhand, but those of us who compete in highpower and also train with carbines know you need to use vastly different stances for each–straight and tall for the former, stepped forward for the latter. Even with a work carbine, your offhand stance will morph into a highpower stance as range increases.

9

Riiiiight, it seems that most “top instructors” are also FULL OF SHIT.

Sorry for going along with the hijack, but the shits funny.

On topic.

get the .22

10

Hello all,
First time poster here, although I’ve been lurking awhile…

Something you may want to take into account is that the 5.45x39 ammunition that you refer to for use in the Tantal is 7N6 military surplus with a steel core. The places where I train are putting a magnet to training ammo to assure that their steel targets (larue, etc) aren’t going to be damaged. You might want to double check with your training facility to make sure that this ammo will be OK.

11

You guys got a reason for why you’re so against the squared stance or what? If so, I’d like to know why I’m jacked up too. :confused:

SF taught us the squared off stance for use with our issued M4s. The idea being that you square your shoulders to your target to provide the most protection from your body armor. What’s the point of angling your body to a target, exposing part of your unprotected kidneys when you’re humping all that body armor? Now obviously, you there will still be a little angling but the point is to be as squared as you can while still getting a comfortable hold on your weapon.

12

Panzerr,

Get Kyle Lamb’s book “green eyes black rifles” he says it better than me.

Interesting, was this US SF?

Regardless, even within “elite” circles people often do/teach things differently (do and teach may also be different).

I have had a team sergeant with 20 years in tell me its best to move the VFG as close to the magwell as possible…

Doesn’t make it “right”.

Gripping far out and “blading” will allow.

-more Control (especially tgt to tgt)
-better Retention (goes along w/control)

Throw that butt into the pocket, and grip the lug :smiley: .

About the plate/ kidney thing. If you are worrying that much about it, you’ll probibly take one to the head.

If you fought with a bo, would you hold your hands in close or as far as comfortably possible? Think about it and experiment, forget what you’ve “learned” and learn it for yourself.

On topic:
But get the .22 upper!

13

There has been a paradigm shift of sorts, as of late, concerning the optimal way to run a carbine. It seems that the old “wisdom” squared-up stance, short stock, VFG close to the magwell is sort of superimposing an MP5 skillset onto a 5.56mm carbine.

Several prominent instructors currently teach a more bladed, forward leaning “aggressive” stance with the carbine, eschewing the VFG for a hold with the support hand as far out as comfortably possible. This aids in recoil control (yes, 5.56mm carbines do recoil) whice equates to faster follow up shots. This also allows one to drive the gun between multiple threats without “overswinging” from shot to shot.

14

I keep hearing good things about this book. I will get it.

Yep. Just one guy, though…

I get what you’re saying, and I appreciate the responses from you and Thekatar. I don’t believe any one way is necessarily the right way so I’m always open to suggestions. One of these days I’ll have to take a couple of carbine courses and get exposed to something other than what I’ve learned from the military….most of which, although only a few years old, is quickly becoming antiquated.

As a side note I always have run my VFG close to the magwell. I found it more manageable and steadier for shooting. I can see how setting it forward would make it easier to manipulate while clearing. I’ll have to try it sometime.

15

Accurate statement.

With the emergence of patrol rifle programs came a need for a skill set to use in fighting with the PR. Borrowing the lessons-learned from subguns was logical. The first schools I went to were essentially redelivery of a modified subgun curriculum. Many still are. That paradigm has endured because it’s worked for what has been needed.

I like the concept of “optimal” and “sub-optimal” when contemplating such things. I’d add another category of “pending” as the genesis occurs.

I’m a square-stance shooter, but have tried other things. There may be a better way, and I may get there. If I’m jacked up today though, my targets aren’t realizing it.

16

It makes sense to me that you should be able to get good hits as quickly as you can regardless of how you are standing. Sometimes you may find yourself square to the threat/target and sometimes you may be “bladed.” I see it kind of like pistol shooting … stance is the way you happen to be standing when you need to shoot. If it’s the way you prefer to stand, then you’re lucky. If not, then you still may need to shoot.

I can also see how some body positions favor specific needs better. If you’re a couple of yards away, perhaps moving forward or backward, being square to the target might make it easier for many people to pump a lot of rounds very quickly with as much accuracy as possible. On the other end, if you’re 75 yards away, have some cover (i.e. time) and need just one head shot, a little more of a bladed, conventional rifle shooting body position may be helpful. For most stuff, it’s an “in between” thing.

There also me be an issue of semantics here. To some, “squared up” means anything other than a smallbore offhand position with your body parallel to the direction of the muzzle. To some, it means with your chest pointed straight at the target/threat, with feet side by side. The same thing happens when discussing elbow position … not everyone means the same thing when they say “elbow down.”