I will have to admit defeat at trying to learn headspace. I googled it, and did some reading, but just did not understand what I read and how it relates to my problem. What I got out of that is that headspace is important if you reload. I do not reload. Then again, maybe I just couldn’t grasp what headspace really is. This is all Wolf and Golden Tiger. Maybe someone could help me out as to what headspace is and how it works, and how it possibly relates to my issue?
Every time I feel I’m learning stuff, and getting an handle on it, I find I know zilch, and there is still so much to learn.
I’ve had the gun since Sept 9. It is a Romanian WASR 10/63. “Made by C.N. Romarm S.A./CUGIR in Romania, imported by CAI Georgia, VT”. The quotations are directly off of the gun, which is in the photo in my first post in this thread, but not clear enough to read.
Is CAI Georgia, VT the same as Century Arms?
Mag not being completely flush. Operator error. That would be me. Two times I have gone to fire the first shot only to get a click. Sliding the charging handle back reveals nothing in the chamber. Mag not fully inserted. I suppose I could have it ever so slightly not fully inserted, and get a round going into the chamber crooked enough to keep the slide from going into battery? Could that be possible, and the root of my problem?
[QUOTE=wingspar;788599]I will have to admit defeat at trying to learn headspace.
Maybe this will help: Headspace is a measurement between two points in the chamber of a weapon. The distance between these two points is a safety limits set for safely firing a cartridge from the chamber of a particular firearm.
Headspacing in a firearm that fires a rimless cartridge (like the 7.62X39) is usually measured from the closed bolt face to a constant and predetermined point on the case shoulder. This point is called the “datum line.” The datum line specification for each cartridge is determined by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI).
Headspace is particularly important because too much or excessive headspace and the cartridge is allowed to move and possibly rupture, damaging the weapon and possibly injuring the shooter and bystanders.
An insufficient amount of headspace does not allow the bolt to close properly on the chambered cartridge. If you then force the bolt forward the bullet may be forced further into the casing, causing overpressure when the
cartridge is fired and again risk damaging the weapon and possible injury to the shooter and bystanders.
One easy way of checking the headspacing of you AK is to get Go/No-Go gauges. I know that Midway USA sells them.
Firearms manufactures have checks and QA’s for verifying headspacing. However don’t forget Murphy’s Law.
For safety reasons it is very important that if you suspect you have incorrect headspacing (you are seeing deformed casing) that you have your weapon checked-out by a competent gunsmith.
Yes, you’re correct: I meant to say “rear sight block.” My appologies.
The basic way you tell if the piston still lines up with the gas block with the tube off is to field strip the weapon (remove the dust cover, spring assembly, and bolt carrier), remove the gas tube, reinsert the bolt carrier and close it by hand as if it were closing under spring pressure. If the head of the piston does not easily enter the gas block, that could be your issue.
Mag not being completely flush. Operator error. That would be me. Two times I have gone to fire the first shot only to get a click. Sliding the charging handle back reveals nothing in the chamber. Mag not fully inserted. I suppose I could have it ever so slightly not fully inserted, and get a round going into the chamber crooked enough to keep the slide from going into battery? Could that be possible, and the root of my problem?
I’m thinking that the mag seating is most likely your issue. Remember that the AK hooks in front and locks in the rear.
Someone correct me if I am wrong. I have heard through the grapevine that CAI AK’s weren’t the greatest and they have had problems.
You’re correct. They’re hit and miss unfortunately.
Bigfoot brings up some things to look for. I still think your headspace might be off.
Are you doing the whole slap the mag out with new mag and jam in the new mag “speed” reload? That wouldn’t have anything to do with the bolt not going into battery, but it’s very easy to miss getting the mag in correctly.
Worse comes to worse, I’d get a new, uncut dust cover, install it, and send it back to Century for a refund.
Now, I’m completely lost. Rimless cartridge? Rimmed cartridge? I did look those two terms up, and got more confused than ever. I need to find a site that has drawings of the two before I can make any sense of that. The site I found used photos of .357 magnum and 9mm rounds as an example. I own both, and really can’t understand why the .357 is a rimmed cartridge, and the 9mm is a rimless cartridge. If the 7.62x39 is a rimless cartridge, what is it that the extractor grabs onto?
I did do that, but there is a lot of wobble in the piston without the tube on, but I can guide it into the gas block with my fingers, and it goes in fine without hitting anything, and as I said, I see no wear marks there.
I have not had the opportunity to shoot the gun for a few days, and I am reluctant to try this in the house with live ammo, but it was doing it intermittently. Next time it happens, before I do anything, I’ll give a tug on the mag to see if it is possibly not fully inserted, even tho it clicked into place. Something I’m doing just might be preventing it from becoming correctly inserted once in a while.
As for headspace, if it comes down to that, I’ll have a smith look at it. Maybe the guy at the LGS can measure that, or at least teach me about headspace with some hands on with the gun.
I have never even tried a mag speed reload. I take my time, and normally only use one mag at a time, even tho I own two.
Look at the base of the .357 cartridge. See the lip? That’s called the rim of the cartridge. Now look at the 9mm. Notice how there’s just a groove instead of a protruding lip? That’s why it’s a rimless cartridge. The extractor has a claw that fits into the groove on rimless cartridges.
I have not had the opportunity to shoot the gun for a few days, and I am reluctant to try this in the house with live ammo, but it was doing it intermittently. Next time it happens, before I do anything, I’ll give a tug on the mag to see if it is possibly not fully inserted, even tho it clicked into place. Something I’m doing just might be preventing it from becoming correctly inserted once in a while.
As for headspace, if it comes down to that, I’ll have a smith look at it. Maybe the guy at the LGS can measure that, or at least teach me about headspace with some hands on with the gun.
I would have the gun headspaced sooner rather than later. Improper headspace is nothing I’d mess around with. Get it checked, and if everything is ok, then try your plan of checking the mag seating the next time it happens.
Having personally carried a few AK’s in my time. Having worked on AK’s from Iraq, East Germany, Poland, China, Bulgaria, Russia, etc…including ones that were older than me I would contact Century and send it back.
If you buy an AK and it won’t work out of the box, something is wrong.
It seemed like it took me forever to see what you are talking about looking at the two cartridges with a magnifying glass, but I understand now. Still, a misleading term for the layman. Thank you for the explanation and your patients. I even pulled out some 5.56 x 45, 7.62 x 39 to look at them, and they are rimless. .38 Special is rimmed, and .22’s are rimmed.
I just called the LGS and talked to him about headspace, and they would have to get it off to a gunsmith, and since it is hunting season, he could be real busy or out hunting. I plan on shooting the gun in the next day or two, and the next time the gun doesn’t go fully into battery, I’ll check the magazine before I remove it and eject the round. This whole thing just might be as easy as an improperly inserted mag. I’m quite capable of doing stuff like that from time to time. If not, then I will have a gunsmith look at it.
I’m hoping this will be as simple as operator error with magazine insertion. This does not happen with every magazine, and only with the first round when it does happen. Replacing the round in the magazine always results in perfect function, and a bang every time I pull the trigger. If I can not determine that the problem is me and improper magazine insertion, and the gunsmith determines bad headspace, then I’ll return it, and get another one.
that’s just from the bolt riding over the rnd before you chamber it. i think you have a mag problem.if it was the forward pin it would do it most of the time. there is a possibility that the mag catch is to high but again that would be showing a lot.try loading one less rnd and see if it keeps happening. or change to a different mag.also is there a place where the bolt can be held up? any shiny spots on the rails and look on the gas piston, where the carrier meets the piston, sometimes that will get hung up if there is a lip there
I put 80 rounds thru it yesterday using both of my mags. I could get the bolt not going into battery as shown in the photo at the beginning of this thread if I rode the charging handle even a fraction of an inch 100% of the time. If I let the charging handle fly into battery on its own, I still got the not going into battery once in a while, but it worked as it should most of the time. Always, removing the mag, ejecting the round, replacing it in the mag, and it would work fine.
I would like to take it out one more time, and just do nothing but load mags, and see how often this occurs with both mags without doing any shooting, and write stuff down as it happens. I do not feel like doing this in the house or yard with live ammo.
The LGS does not feel like this could be a headspace problem, but for peace of mind, I’m thinking I’ll have this looked at by a gunsmith. It’s just strange that it only does it on the first round in the magazine, and not all of the time.
I may have missed it in one of the earlier posts, but how many mags do you have for your AK? Are they Com Bloc or US made? Steel or polymer? If you’ve only got the one mag, you might try getting a few surplus mags and see if the problem still presents itself.
I would swear from your description that is sounds as if the carrier is rubbing/binding on something. You may want to double check for interferences b/w the carrier and the rear sight block.
First sentence in my last post mentioned two mags. They are both com block steel magazines. One came with the gun, the other I bought from Wideners when I ordered some ammo. The one that came with the gun fits tight, slight wobble side to side, but not noticeable. The second mag has tons of side to side wobble, and is quite noticeable. It is 0.030-inches narrower than the other mag at a critical point, but works fine.
There is tons of clearance between the carrier and the rear sight block.
The only rubbing/binding I am getting is from the carrier rubbing on the trigger hammer. From what I’ve been told, that is normal, and should bind less the more I shoot it. I doubt it has anything to do with the bolt not going fully into battery.
I’ve seen the hammer catch the carrier enough at the rear to cause problems on a few AK’s. I found the US hammer had a different radius on the top than the original and did a little mod on a belt sander.
The only other thing I can think of (other than the hammer catching as Todd indicated above) is checking your receiver to make sure the issue doesn’t lie there. Check the receiver and rails for any bends that could cause the carrier to bind.
If I ease the charging handle along, the carrier will stop where it hits the trigger hammer. If there is a magazine with rounds inserted, I can give the carrier handle a jolt from there, and it will stop just short of battery as in my photo on page one of this thread. I can not push the carrier into battery. It will not move any further. I must remove the magazine, eject the round, and start over. As long as I pull the charging handle all the way back, and release and let bolt slam into battery, everything is fine. What I don’t understand is when it fails to go into battery, is why I can not nudge it into battery.
Depending on what I’m shooting at, I’ll put 5 rounds in the mag, 10 rounds, or 20 rounds. The other day I put 10 rounds in each magazine. It does not matter what magazine I use. Both metal eastern block magazines.
No worries. The longer a thread gets, the easier it is to miss stuff. As I said, if I let the carrier fly on its own, it will go into battery. If I ease it along, it will not. With no magazine in the gun, it goes into battery every time. Looking at the rails, one on the right side could have a slight bend in it, but then again, I might be looking too hard. I’d need someone at the LGS or a gunsmith to look at it to determine if there is any problems with the rails.
I did a video today that shows most of what I’m describing, and the video came out ok this time. Of course, sitting at home and watching it, I see stuff I left out. When I get the time, I’ll do some editing on the video, and see if it’s worth uploading. Might explain what’s happening better than I can put into words.
I uploaded the video last night. While the video may serve no real purpose, it might help see what I am actually experiencing. Pardon the introduction to the video. I did it as a last minute thought yesterday. It only lasts for a few seconds till the real video starts.
If someone has any thoughts on why I can not nudge the bolt into battery when it does not go into battery, I’d appreciate them. It seems like one should be able to nudge it the rest of the way into battery.
Ok, while it’s very normal for the bolt carrier to be held back by pressure of the hammer, even on all import pre-1989 rifles, the bolt not going into battery is a serious problem and I’m advising you to send it back to Century for repair/replacement/credit.
After watching the vid, it looks like something is going wrong as the bolt is trying to make its turn. I would definitely heed Templar’s advice and send it back.
Just out of curiousity, you said in the vid that the only way to fix the problem is to remove the mag and eject the round. Have you tried simply racking the bolt to clear the malfunction?
They are both com block steel magazines. One came with the gun, the other I bought from Wideners when I ordered some ammo. The one that came with the gun fits tight, slight wobble side to side, but not noticeable. The second mag has tons of side to side wobble, and is quite noticeable. It is 0.030-inches narrower than the other mag at a critical point, but works fine.
As I said, if I let the carrier fly on its own, it will go into battery. If I ease it along, it will not. With no magazine in the gun, it goes into battery every time. Looking at the rails, one on the right side could have a slight bend in it, but then again, I might be looking too hard. I’d need someone at the LGS or a gunsmith to look at it to determine if there is any problems with the rails.