CarlosD, I agree that taking preventive steps with the neighbors is a good idea.
My comments were in response to:
“I don’t mind having the cops getting called, so long as I have an airsoft in my hands and not the real mccoy.”
I’ve drawn down on people who had what later turned out to be airsoft guns in their hands when I showed up.
One of these people was pointing it at the kid next to him in the backseat of a vehicle. They never knew I was there until I told him to drop it or else . . .
He came very close to leaving this world a lot sooner than he wanted to.
I agree. I started to post a reply to your initial post and then saw that the thread had devolved into a discussion of offending the neighbors and what to do when they call the police… My adult ADD kicked in and I lost interest, and lost track of what I was going to say to begin with.
I think what I was going to mention was that Randy Cain teaches a force-on-force class where they use Airsoft guns. I have not made it to one of these classes yet, but I want to and hear good things about them.
Based on the fact that Randy uses them, I think they have a place for this purpose. I’m not sure that there is any marksmanship training usefulness to them though.
IMO, Sims are better than airsoft if you can afford them, but airsoft is a “pretty good” substitute for Sims, which is why airsoft is becoming more popular for training, not just for hobbyists.
Yeah, I’ve held off on getting anything airsoft for practice because I think the AEGs (battery powered guns) don’t have realistic triggers, charging handles, bolt catches, etc. The gas powered Western Arms guns look interesting, but I’m not sure I’d want to use green gas indoors… And the Systema training guns are $1500. Ouch.
I’ll see what happens over the course of the next few months in the airsoft market. I would very much like to pick one up eventually to do target transition and shooting-while-moving drills in my basement, but only if the gun has fairly realistic controls, all-up weight, etc.
There are a great many notable instructors these days that are using or recommending Airsoft for TRAINING.
The subject doesn’t get me riled up until people start using optics, mounts or other accessories on their REAL firearm that were designed (copied) and built originally by a toy gun company.
I bought a metal frame airsoft glock, and it’s very difficult to tell the differences; even simulates the recoil (not as strong, but you can still feel it). The trigger is nearly the same, with a 15 round mag. As for practicing, you might contact your local department and explain the situation, and see what their recommendations are. If they know what you are planning, a simple call to central dispatch might calm some nerves.
We do our school trainings in the summer, using airsofts along with shotguns firing blanks. even though we have signs out “Police Training”, central still gets calls. last training was also coordinated with local ambulance services, giving them the chance to walk amoung the bodies and do the rapid evals. Lol my kids volunteered and had fun, while at the same time it reinforced the trainings the schools are now giving.
KWA has released a new line of gas blow back handguns called PTP (professional training pistol). They are IMO the best airsoft weapon available. They currently have two models out. a M9 and a P226R. They are called KWA M9 PTP and Kwa M26R PTP. I have heard rumors of a 1911 and a Glock. They are 1:1 replicas in mostly metal parts. The weight and balance are supposed to be identical. They use the same controls and field strip the same as the real steel versions. They do not have trademarks on them. They use green or red gas. Red gas is propane without the scent additive. Places sell propane adapters so you can use the camp propane bottles to fill the magazines. The propane or red gas propels a.20g bb at over 380 feet per second, slightly lower for green gas at 350fps. They have a decent kick and bolt hold open on last round. The western arms M4 is a blast to train with. They operate and disassemble accurately as well.
this is the one i have, and you cant distinguish it from a real M4
Tokyo Marui M4A1 (New Version) AEG Airsoft Gun
M4A1 Carbine
by Tokyo Marui
Multipostion stock, one piece metal barrel, and reinforced receiver tabs are some of the improvements offered by the newly redesigned M4A1. Barrel length and muzzle velocity help to distinguish this M4 as one of the farthest and hardest shooting M4 variants. When you engage the enemy with this weapon, he will know why Marui’s M4 is one of the most accuate rifles in the world today.
Let’s not get fun confused with something offering training value. An AEG only looks like a gun. It does not simulate action or trigger pull at all. It has the same amount of training value as a blue gun, IMHO.
I firmly believe that GBB models are the only way to go for any kind of training or practice value from the perspective of practicing shooting techniques. AEGs do hold value for exercises that aren’t about practicing the fundamentals of shooting (room clearing, FOF, what have you) but I believe the best type of practice weapon has the following qualities:
some recoil
some kind of trigger break
easily fed (ammo)
similar operation to the real thing
Using an AEG to try and practice shooting techniques is a losing proposition in my eyes. The user is so disconnected from the shooting experience that it’s very easy to develop bad habits because the training is so unrealistic.
I’ve had a green gas powered USP since 2000 that I picked up in Tokyo. Have never fired it. This thread is motivating me to get it out and try it. I did get a bottle of green gas a few years ago…
It functions just like the real USP and is about the same heft. Exactly the same size. Strips the same way, and the pieces all function the same.
The problem with most airsoft guns is that they’re horribly inaccurate for the most part. The other problem is that there’s a strong desire to simply track the flight of the BB in order to aim rather than using your sights.
If you’re diligent with your desire to use the in place sighting systems then they’re pretty good training tools as far as building muscle memory. I really do believe that airsoft replicas for 95% of the members on these forums would be an excellent addition to anyones training regimen simply because 95% of the members on these forums are interested in bettering their already existing skills. I highly doubt anyone would fall into the 13 year old adolescent boy category and learn how to fire the gun by watching the bb’s sail through the air.
I personally practice reloading and chambering rounds with a glock 19 airsoft pistol simply because im not comfortable with chambering live rounds or even snap caps in my home.
One other really neat thing that the average joe wouldnt think about is that airsoft guns are GREAT base platforms for prototyping and testing potential modifications. I did my first home grip reduction on an airsoft pistol. I practiced stipling on my airsoft glock 19. I would never, EVER have the balls to just take a soldering iron to a glock 19 on a whim.
Correct me if im wrong but doesnt Gabe Suarez also use airsoft for training purposes?
If anyone would like more info on airsoft or sources as to where they can purchase toss me a PM, i would be happy to oblige.
I just wanted to make a quick correction here. Red gas is not propane. Green gas is propane without the silicone additive. Please, do not use red gas in your gas blowback guns, the PSI is far too high for the average user and will lead to premature parts failure even in the KWA PTP line.
Dont waste your money on the PTW line of products. They’re overpriced over glorified toys. They are NOT good training weapons. At least on a cheapo Tokyo Marui the charging handle actually loves…
Just to expand upon your thoughts. Wait until the end of the year. There are quite a few realistic gas powered ar15 variants being released so the future is bright in regards to “realistic” functioning airsoft guns. Six months from now the market should be ripe with competition and you will be able to get the best bang for your buck…er, not literally of course.
You are so right its not even funny. The chinese crap that is being produced these days does not belong on a real firearm unless all you want to do is shoot paper at a range. Anyone that would buy this stuff thinking its going to go on a home defense rifle and actually perform needs to take a reality pill or maybe get their head checked. You cannot put a price on equipment that your life could one day be weighted against. Buy right or buy twice.
The other thing that bothers me is that alot of people simply dont know any better. There are so many people out there that know what firearms are but dont know what airsoft is. They buy a firearm, do a google search for an ACOG and come up with a chinese clone. “Wow, 80 bucks? What a deal!!!” There are some companies out there that are actually doing themselves and the uneducated or uninformed a favor. One such example is Madbull Airsoft. They produce fairly high quality rail system replicas, flash hiders, and mock suppressors. Their newest release, the noveske/sws rail system has a gas tube hole that hasnt been machined out. This means that there is NO way the end user could mistake the airsoft version for the real version. Thats the way things should be done, unfortunately, many manufacturers are located in china and simply dont give a damn about safety and doing things “right”. They also dont give a damn about licensing unfortunately and “unauthorized” copies are what the airsoft industry was built upon. Fortunately, there are manufacturers out there looking to change that. As far as im concerned, firearms manufacturers SHOULD be paid royalties from Airsoft companies for licensing products.
