Hey guys, I’ve been on a mission to choose a 1-4x optic for me for probably a month now and to sell off my Aimpoint in favor of it. So first of all, let me get to the reasons.
Astigmatism- I figured a diopter would be able to account for my imperfect vision. Sure I can wear glasses while I shoot, but the Aimpoint’s red dot will reflect off my glasses in the right light and make it appear as though there are two dots being projected- and they are identical. Maybe this isn’t as big a deal as I think though.
Accuracy- THIS is the biggie for me. I feel like I can shoot far more accurately with the irons than I can the Aimpoint, especially with more rapid fire when the dot starts jumping around, and especially at the longer ranges as well (well, 50m+).
So my questions on using the Aimpoint: I’ve shot irons and higher magnification scopes my whole life before the Aimpoint, so might it be that I just haven’t practiced enough to shoot it as accurately as the irons? I could also continue working on sighting it in to fine tune it. Also, what are some good drills I could start working on to add some challenge to shooting the Aimpoint if I end up keeping it? I think I also tend to get bored shooting it because it’s so easy to be honest lol.
Anyway, thanks for any discussion, tips, and recommendations!
I think you might be misapplying the Aimpoint. The Aimpoint biggest advantage is “speed”. The Aimpoint is a fighting sight and as Pat Rogers says, “It is a force multiplier”. Guess it depends on what you have an AR for - SD, HD, Paper, Coyotes, etc. I mean some people claim their gun is for SD/HD and they have a 12X scope on it. Going to be awful hard to justify shooting someone in the 'burbs at 400 yards as self-defense or it is going to be even harder to shoot someone running at you at 10-yards with a 12X.
From what I’ve seen, for an all-around HD/SD gun, I don’t think a <$2000 1-4X scope can beat what an Aimpoint does best. Here are some of the trade-offs: speed, field of view, ruggedness, low light, eye position, weight, accuracy, …
You pretty much give up speed, fov, ruggedness, low light, eye position, and lightweight all for accuracy. Then, it depends on what your definition of “accuracy” is. Offhand or benched, 3-shots or 20, rapid or slow fire, …all contribute to accuracy…to me.
I’ve had a T-1 for a year and I don’t think I’ll ever get rid of it. I went back and forth with different scopes on that rifle and made up my mind that the Aimpoint will be on one rifle and I’ll put a scope on the other rifle.
I just bought a Vortex Razor 1-4X and I’m still trying to decide how I like it but I do know that for at least right now, the scoped rifle will not be my go-to-gun. When it is all said and done, it wouldn’t surprise or disappoint me if I decide to just have an Aimpoint on each gun.
I totally get what you’re saying, urct. I took my Aimpoint off my rifle today so that I could put it up for sale and get something like the Viper PST 1-4x…but I didn’t even have it off there for long enough to take pictures of it as planned before I’d put it back on. I think I may just get some prescription strength shooting glasses and use my ‘gun fund’ savings on some other rifle upgrades.
Anyone want to recommend some of your favorite drills to run with the Aimpoint to add some challenge to shooting with it?
I’ll check it out, F2S, thanks. I was going to end up going on a hunt for a thread like that anyway, if/when I decide i’m for certain sticking with the Aimpoint. But, when needed for longer shots, an Aimpoint (mine is an ML2 right now) can be every bit as accurate as irons right?
If you are looking to punch paper, then a scope may be better suited for your needs.
If you are looking for a general purpose sight, then the Aimpoint is an excellent sight. It can be very effective at distances over 100 yards with practice and familiarization.
I have an Aimpoint M2 and regularly shoot steel plates at 200 yards and further.
As someone already pointed-out, the only scopes which are going to even come close to the durability and reliability of the AP are going to cost well over a $1K and maybe more into the $2500 range for a Short-Dot.
I would consider keeping the AP, and saving your money for a Trijicon, or Vortex type 1-4.
Or if you want to spend less, Leupold, Burris, or a similar low-powered 1-4X scope for range use.
That is what I did. I currently have three Aimpoints, but use a low- powered Leupold scope with a quick release mount when I am wanting some magnification for shooting paper or hunting.
P.S. There is a ton of information on this forum regarding scope selection and advantages/ disadvantages of various optics. There was also a thread here recently where other members were discussing optics choices for shooters with vision problems.
Take some time and check-through some of the older threads and the stickies. Also, I would pay particular attention to what FS2 and Army Chief have to say.
Will do, SkiDevil. Thanks again for the opinions- for some reason I’m changing my mind on this about every hour lol, so I’m just gathering all the information I can. If I get a 1-4x, it will be the Vortex Viper PST without a doubt- advantages over Aimpoint are a diopter to adjust focus and the magnification, and the MRAD reticle that would allow me to adjust for holdovers etc. if I ever needed to. Disadvantages- ruggedness, weight.
I’m not really considering battery life a disadvantage because I would suspect that I’d only “need” the illumination of the PST about once in a blue moon. When I bring my rifle home and toss it in the closet/under the bed, the scope will be taken off. Like I said before, even after shooting a few hundred rounds through the Aimpoint, I’ve shot irons all my life and I’m extremely comfortable/efficient/quick with them. Either way, my gun fund is just about where I want it to be for me to go ahead and do some upgrades and I’ll keep you guys posted!
I have been very impressed with the SWFA 1-4x.
The “T” reticle is versatile and thick enough to work without illumination, which is also impressive. At the highest setting the stadia clearly stand out on a white wall in direct sunlight.
Reportedly the battery life at high power is not impressive, but even if the battery goes down the sight can be effectively used without illumination.
I much prefer 1/10 Mil adjustments to any other option, and they feel distinct in adjustment.
I have no connection to SWFA, it is just a very cost-efficient option if you want a low-powered variable.
I have a pretty good astigmatism. I also do a lot of hunting. So I’m very familiar with hi-power scopes. The hardest thing for me to learn how to do with shooting; which I’ve been shooting for about 40 years; is to use a reflex/red-dot type sight, and shoot with both eyes open. When I retired from the military, I was still using iron sights and fixed scopes for longer distances. But trying to use today’s eotechs, mullens, and many of the reflex type sights was very difficult. I could do it with one eye closed, like a scope. But doing it with 2 eyes open was difficult getting my brain to superimpose the red-dot onto the object. It started off with me seeing 2 of everything. But the more I practiced, the better I got. This is one reason however that I never Co-Witness my sights. I have no problem Co-Existing my iron sights and my optics; but I won’t look through both together.
I personally don’t own an Aimpoint, so I can’t tell you the best way to shoot it. But I can say that now that my brain has learned how to shoot reflex/red-dot type sights with both eyes open, it is so fast and accurate. It took some heavy practicing. “Especially considering I wear Bi-focals”. But the red dots are perfectly clear; dead on balls accurate; and easy to acquire. I have 5 various reflex and/or red-dot sights. And I just ordered an EoTech to play with. I can pick up any of them and shoot it instinctively. Actually, the hardest thing for me now, is shooting an elk, goat, antelope, etc… at 300+ yards with one of my really nice scopes, and accidentally keeping both eyes open. My brain has actually been able to not pay attention to the information coming from the non-scoped eye. Definitely freaky.
Just for the sake of trying next time you are at the range try a little trick for me. Put a little piece of scotch tape…maybe 1" long, onto the center of your glasses on your non dominate side. Make sure you put the tape on the glasses as if you were shooting a gun which for most people the head is slightly down.
I am right hand dominate left eye dominate with an astigmatism in my left eye which is why its the dominate one since its a little more powerful than the right. The tape trick will make your vision go WTF for a little bit but I can now shoot anything both eyes open and use my right eye much better. I shoot both RDS’s and magnified optics both eyes open.
I dont use tape anymore since when Im shooting Ive trained my left eye to take a nap basically, and learned to focus with my right since the left was handicapped by the tape.
You’ll still get vision through the left eye where there is no tape you’re just trying to keep your left eye from being that does the focusing.
Also wanted to mention what helped me was getting a set of RX prescription shooting glasses from Decot. You really need a good current RX from the doc, and then talk to the Decot people. I went through them, and was able to set me up with glasses that put my right eye as the dominate one by strengthening the right eye and retarding the left one. I would wear them around for hours, read books, and you’re basically teaching your right how to be the one that does the focusing. All you need is a slight tweak, and your brain will start shifting the dominance to the right. I don’t wear the glasses anymore or use the tape but I can mentally force my left eye to play dead and let my right eye do the shooting. Sometimes I have trouble doing rapid drills very close in and my left wants to take over. When that happens I go into point shooting mode, and don’t even use sights.
I used to shoot ATA trap, and the tape/glasses helped me out a lot because that is all point shooting basically. I had trouble initially shooting clay targets because my left eye was doing all the work. After figuring out what my issue was, getting a good RX, went to Decot with what I wanted, and working with the tape it fixed about 90% of my issues. Never going to be as good as having both sides naturally dominate but its either that or learning to shoot lefty. My left arm could be amputated and I probably wouldn’t even notice it. That fucker is dumb so learning to shoot lefty wasn’t an option for me.
good info belmont. But for me, it works out OK. I am a lefty. I am left eye dominant. And my left eye has the more pronounced astigmatism. So for me; all the starts and planets line up fine. I was just so use to shooting with irons and scopes for so many years, that I naturally closed my right eye. It took a little while to get use to shooting with both eyes open, but it’s no longer an issue. I can even do it with magnified hunting scopes. But if my dominant eye wasn’t my shooting eye, I could see how that could be a lot worse. With open reflex and red-dot type sights, (No magnification), I’ve actually gotten pretty good at shooting with both eyes open and seeing the red-dot. I actually “CAN’T SEE THE SIGHT” any longer. I see what’s out in front of me, and I see a red-dot on it.
OP astigmatism doesn’t mean that a aimpoint will not work for you.
Have you even tried a aimpoint yet?
I have a friend that invested heavily into eotechs 3 of them because he has a astigmatism and was under the impression aimpoint would not work for him [FALSE] he loves my aimpoint and has tried to purchase it off of me several times.
I would still call the people at decot, and explain your eye issues with the astigmatism. For some reason people in the AR community dont want to be seen with funky RX lenses due to eye issues. Its worth a shot, and they are good people over there who understand all manner of eye issues. Even being same side dominate (eye and hand) you can see benefit from a set of RX shooting classes setup properly because astigmatisms can causes issues even in people who are not cross dominate. The most important step in all of this is getting a GOOD current RX to work with. Its something I will be doing in the next few months, and getting some good shooting glasses.
Eyes are not something to battle when it comes to shooting.
I have- I’ve owned one since October. If I wear my glasses I can see the dot just fine (I assume as good as anyone who doesn’t have an astigmatism) but then I often get what I assume is a reflection off my glasses lenses, which makes it look like two identical dots in the sight. That, on top of me wanting some magnification so I can start shooting at longer ranges for a bit of a challenge, and me being (IMO) very proficient with irons all kind of snowballed into me wanting a low magnification optic.
I would contact a RX shooting glasses company about this before I start selling things at a loss and maybe end up going in a big circle ending up where you started. Decot is who I have experience with but think you need to go to a source rather than get random responses on the internet.
Well I wear contacts for my corrective vision. No astigmatism that I am aware of even though M.E.P.S told me I was color blind which is a total crock of shit the State says I am not :jester: [By the way the joker has a red on his left side and a red ball on his hat on the right]. Actually I have 2 buddies that have astigmatism one that is really color blind. The one that has a astigmatism and is color blind wears contacts for his corrective vision prefers my aimpoint to his eotechs the other one with astigmatism and is not colorblind gravitates towards a eotech but he tells me that my aimpoint doesn't give him any problems but he also wears contacts.
If you are wanting more magnification then you got to do what you have to do to get the higher magnification. As far as I am aware astigmatism doesn't bother people on magnified optics. But I am not a optometrists so please take it as such.
Belmont; I think you might be replying to the other poster. I mentioned having an astigmatism, but I in no way, shape, or form have ANY issues shooting. Not with mag scopes, red-dots, reflex, holo, etc… I can still take elk, sheep, and antelope at close to 400 yards without a worry. And I have no issues with CQB if needed. I was simply stating that for “ME”, it took a little getting accustomed to shooting initially with both eyes open. Prior to reflex/holo type sights, I always shot with one eye closed.
I’m not quite sure what your point is? I have no need, nor desire, to get prescription shooting glasses. Maybe the OP does, but I have no reason whatsoever to even consider it. PLUS; I’m not a competition shooter. So for me, adding anything to my shooting that isn’t natural for me, goes totally against my training and belief. I.e. I don’t ever shoot from a sled, vise, etc… Why? Because in the real world, I won’t be using such things for shooting game or for defensive purposes. So prescription shooting glasses would not be an option if they aren’t something I’d be wearing normally.
But that’s getting off the point. My point was, I think you’re mixing up the other poster’s astigmatism with my posts. I have an astigmatism, but I have absolutely no vision problems when it comes to shooting; sights used; or target acquisition.
First tell us what your use for the carbine is for. If HD,SD is high on your list I would in no way recommend selling the AP for a magnified optic. It sounds to me you need to get in more range time with the AP. I too started on irons for many years and also shot high power matches with same. I have owned 5 Aim Points in total and currently have two. My older one is a ML2 with 4moa dot, with this one I have no problems making 200yd torso hits using 55gr fmj ammo. My latest Aim Point is a M4s with a 2moa dot, with this one I can easliy make head shots at 200yrds using 55gr fmj ammo. Accuracy can be increased with better ammo but I am in no need for better accuracy than this as my carbines roles are primarily HD,SD.
I also wear glasses, I do not know if I have an astigmatism or not. By your description it sounds as if you may be over thinking things. Again I wear glasses too, and I catch reflections in them all day everyday and I just deal with them (ignore them). You should not become obsessed with focusing on the reflections in your glasses nor with focusing on the dot in the tube. The idea is to focus on your target with the dot on it. I get the feeling you don’t have any problem that more shooting/training/familiarization can’t fix.
Now if you are simply persuing better long range accuracy you are on a different path than I am and may want to consider other options.
I’ll keep everyone posted, I’ve got the new build plan laid out, now I’m just kind of waiting and stewing on it a bit to make sure I want to go through with it.