Active Night Vision Setup

Training Training and Tactics
1

For those who have experience with NVDs in an “active” role (particularly PVS-14s), I have a couple of questions about their setup and use in conjunction with a carbine.

NOTE I am trying my best to NOT ask about actual tactics here on an open forum. If you have a response that contains anything that might be a little too related to tactics, plese PM me instead of posting something that doesn’t have a place here in the open.

First Question
I understand that in an active role, NODs will generally only be used via a helmet mount and in conjunction with an IR laser. With this setup, barring a “passive/static” situation, is there ever a time that it is more beneficial to have the NVD mounted to the gun? And if so, when? If not, is there any benefit to having the capability to mount the NVD to the gun?

Second Question
I’ve been considering switching to a T-1 from a CompM3. If I ever do use the PVS-14 attached to the gun, would I be giving up anything in sight picture with the T-1, since the tube on the T-1 is smaller than the tube on the PVS-14?

Thanks guys. And again, I’m really not trying to get into tactics, but the way I worded these is really the only way I know how to get my question across…and yes, I realize this is in the “Training and Tactics” forum, but I didn’t know where else to put it :blink:

2

I’ve been looking into an NVD setup, and have found that a PVS-14 in an absolute (it’s what I use for my T-1) co-witness La-Rue non-flip mount works really well to me.

I’ve tried the helmet thing, with IR laser because a friend uses it for NODs but it’s just really clunky to me, and I hate it. Whereas I actually really dig the static positioned NVD sight, in conjunction with an IR filter for a SureFire scout or something in the 3 O’Clock position.

It’s faster for me, and keeps weight off of my brain box.

But there are other dudes much more experienced than me who’ve actually used NODs to shoot people here. So I’ll let them chime in.

I just figured I’d toss in my two cents.

3

My 2 cent…I am issued 2 PVS-14’s, so this colors my perspective.

As a basic principle I don’t like an NVD on my gun.

  1. I don’t want to sweep/flag things with my gun when scanning. It is very easy to do if the NVD is mounted on the gun.

  2. If I have one NVD on the gun, that means my second is on my helmet, and over my non-dominant eye so that I can use the one on my gun for shooting when needed. For me, this just doesn’t work very well. My brain somehow does not integrate the green picture on my left eye very well with what my naked right eye sees.

  3. Using double monoculars gives me the best possible SA, and used in conjunction with an IR laser (Peq-2A), I can get good effective at good range.

  4. If running a single PVS-14 on your helmet, over your dominant eye, you can reduce the gain so that there is only a slight difference between what the right and left eyes see. The NVD picture seen by the right eye will superimpose itself over what the left eye sees.

Isolatedly speaking though, mounting an NVD behind a red dot, or mounting a system in front of a magnified optic, is a good way to shoot. But again, I prefer the improved SA for what I do.

4

For what it is worth I have no problems shooting a rifle with Aimpoint M4 with helmet mounted NVD. I have used IR laser, but I see it as a no-go if the opponent has NVD’s too. It just gives you away too easily. NVD on a rifle only will mean very bad situational awareness.

I do not have dual NVD’s so that is my 2c with a monocular.

5

If you don’t mind, could you describe the sight picture a little more with a T1 in front of a PVS14? I’ve seen pics of this, but not in person. The pics seem to show that the FOV gets way restricted with the T1 vs M3/M4 or EOTech…

My plan was to have a helmet mount over my non-dominant (left) eye and be able to shoulder mount my carbine as normal (right handed, strong side) and either use the red dot via superimposition or IR laser to shoot. The part of my question that you touched on is whether a gun mount was even needed when you have a helmet mounted option. Sounds like its really not unless you’re in a static position…

Do you have the NVD mounted over your non-dominant eye? And if you don’t use an IR laser, do you use the “superimposing method” in conjunction with a red dot viewed by your dominant eye?

(This may be a little tactics based, so I won’t delve too deep) but if you’re concerned with the opponent having NODs, wouldn’t you just use the IR laser with the same discipline that you would use a white light? I wouldn’t think that you’d leave the laser on the whole time…

6

I’m not really sure what you mean here since the way I understand it, from your description of your setup, you would have two “green” sight pictures vs having to superimpose the “green” picture over the black one, when shooting, right?

I might have worded that clumsily. I was in fact talking about scanning and moving, not shooting. When looking through the gun mounted NVD it would not be a problem, but for me, having a naked dominant eye and the NVD on my non-dominant eye just doesn’t work.

Why would you not run it over your non-dominant eye so that if you want to use your red dot, you could superimpose the dot into the night vision picture?

Again, for me, the picture that my non-dominant, NVD equipped eye sees just won’t integrate well with what my naked dominant eye sees.

For example, if I shoot non-dominant shoulder, both eyes open, without a red dot, I will miss the target at 10 meters. Don’t know if that is normal, but it is that way for me. That physical effect messes everything up when I have the NVD mounted over my non-dominant eye.

I have no doubt that dual monoculars, or something like PVS7s, gives the best SA. I think the IR laser is the key to effectiveness if you’re going to have helmet mounted NODs.

A PVS-7 is still a single tube system, just with two ocular pieces, so the quality is actually worse, than just a single PVS-14. Not to mention depth perception. The IR laser is a very good tool, but the use has to be regulated through proper control measures. I’m talking infantry fight here, not SOF. This entails actual use during a firefight, and including what night fighting capabilities/IFF measures are to be used. This is decided through IPB/MDMP/TLP steps.

There are other night fighting tools/assets available as well, but I won’t get into them here.

Maintaining SA is a priority for me. A PEQ is adequate for engaging targets at most ranges I would use this system at night (assault rifle/carbine).

7

I tried the superimposing method, which seemed to work fine first. Later on I have found out it is not reliable and depends on all sorts of things (diopter setting on the NVD, for instance). It works better with ambient light and visible light sources on which my eyes can align themselves to. In pitch black I will get more variation to POI. I do use it with ACOG & Bindon Concept, but with NVD’s it really doesn’t work for me reliably enough.

On the use of laser. I have the NVD on the dominant eye and shooting with it with M4 is very much the same as in daytime without NVD’s. I have pretty squared stance so there isn’t that much difference really, so I don’t really need other aiming devices. Also I zero one sight which I can do during the day and be 100% of the POI in the night since it is the same sight. IR laser is very visible if there are any particles (smoke, dust, fog) in the air so even if I use it intermittently it will draw a line right were I am located. Too risky IMHO. In low-density conflicts it is a lesser issue, but we train for full scale war in which the enemy has as good, or indeed better, gear than we do.

8

It actually probably looks exactly like what you’re thinking. It’s not a wide FOV at all, but I can access it fast, which I like.

I haven’t compared it directly to a M4/EOTech, and I doubt I will as I don’t own either one of those. But I’m 100% sure it’s FOV is reduced.

9

Interesting. Been playing with set up for the past 2 months. I ended up purchasing a helmet from TNVC, not the ballistic helmet but it was in the 300.00 range.

I acquired a very good "Wilcox"or something like that arm and wear the 14 on my left eye. I also have a second 14 that mounts on the rifle behind the optic if needed.

Also have a catchers mask that the 14 mounts on I’ve discovered that with the helmet on I can shoot ok. With the 14 on the rifle it’s right on the x.
With the 14 on the weapon I lose some side vision.

Right now my choice is the helmet or mask on my left eye and a pistol inside the house.

This past week, I contacted TNVC regarding a IR laser. I need to be able to do this with 100%certain of where my rounds are landing.

My concerns are a couple years ago I was issued a G36H&K a PecII and a set of PVS 21s. That combination just never seemed to work for me.

I was never comfortable night shooting with that set up. I switched back to the M4 got rid of the Pec II and used the PVS21s thru an eotech and that worked great.

I have2 sets of 14s I need to get a duel holder soon.

I’m rambling, getthe14s you can’t go wrong with them, they are fantastic. Not as good as the 21s were but dam nice.

DW

10

…

11

Had an aftermarket rail set up on it. Think it was out of France? If you said the name I would recognize it.

Regarding the pvs14 I’ve continued to work with the system. I’ve come to the conclusion that the system has flaws. I think what’s happening is that I’m trying to get a pvs14 to focus thru a smaller lense.

It works, but COULD work a lot better with a bigger dot system lense.

I’m going to step back on this one. These questions are better answered by the guys at TNVCS as they seem to have a handle on how this works best.

Now I’ve tried it with T1s a couple Vortex red dots, and an Aim Point comp ML.

All work just not like I would like them to work.

DW

12

My guess would be Bruegger & Thommet since it is an HK.

I use my issued PVS-14 helmet mounted as policy prohibits it being weapon -mounted (probably due to the same reason we have a policy saying weapon-mounted lights can’t be used as a “flashlight”; because some dumb ass misused it).

That said, I have “practiced” with it weapon mounted with my T1 and I didn’t find the tube size difference from my M4 horribly distracting.

13

The rail you name is correct. I was not a big fan of the G36 I fou d it awkward to shoot with the tall rail and dot on top, I felt like I had to stretch which was out of my comfort zone.

I’m glad to here your 14s behind the T1 are working out. I can use it I just think there is a better way. As usual time and money will find an except able solution for my needs.

I’ve resigned myself to a glock 21 and the 14. Truth be told, anybody in my house after I go to bed is a bad guy.

Rarely have folks stay the night and when I do, they are far more hinked up then me. I actually lock the bedroom door so my associates don’t go all postal on my wife and me.

DW

14

Joke? If so, forgive my slowness… If not, wtf.

15

Hey guys,

Just wanted to say thanks for all the responses and help. I have a better idea on what to expect now. I will definitely be going with a PVS-14 at some point, and will probably keep my CompM3 for the FoV. It sounds like dual 14s (one helmet and one gun) is the ultimate setup, but I think I can do well with one tube on my non-dominant eye and superimposing images in an “active” mode of deployment. I’ve tried the superimposing thing, and it does work for me. Laser activation: I do know it goes both ways, but I guess it will be used mostly like a white light IRT emission discipline.

Thanks again guys.

16

What’s the best value in civie-friendly lasers with a pressure switch?

17

First Answer: If you are not using a laser, it is going to be pretty hard to get a sight picture with NOD on your head. Another scenario where NOD on firearm works better is when stationary.

Second Answer: Yes it is is little smaller.