I’m a bit of a newbie with respect to full auto weapons training having recently purchased both a RR M16A1 and a Mini Uzi in the last year. As I’ve begun to shoot both guns and begin “training” with them, I’ve found my learning curve with the Mini in terms of being able to sustain fire and hit targets has been pretty good which surprised me given the high rate of fire. By good, I only mean that i can keep bursts of 10+ rounds in an 6" circle at 25 yards (head shots if you will) and do so pretty consistently.
The M16A1 is set up on a PWS Mk 112 (piston) upper with an Eotech and Giselle automatic trigger. I have reasonable amounts of trigger time on AR-15’s but this is the first significant time with full auto and I’m honestly struggling a bit. With the lower rate of fire and a rifle platform, I assumed I would be more accurate with this weapon on F/A and so far I’m just not. I can get 2-3 round bursts in the same 6-8" target area at 25 yds but from there, despite best efforts the shots are just walking up and to the right and the groups aren’t what I feel like they should be. That said, it may be that my expectations for the platform may just be wrong - too many action movies… I recognize that part of it is just trigger time (which is proving to be damned expansive) but thought I’d reach out to more experienced shooters and see if you have any suggestions.
Quick reference: I’m medium size guy (5’10", 185 lbs) in reasonable shape who has been shooting for fun and some local competition for quite awhile. I shoot squared up to the target and know enough to put my weight on the balls of my feet and lean into the gun. As I said, I can control the UZI SMG (1200 rpm) pretty comfortably now but any insight on improving my performance with the M16 would be great.
Remember that muzzle rise on FA will be greater when shooting a 5.56 rifle compared to a 9mm compact SMG.
Accuracy will also decrease as you increase range, as a result of barrel whip and weapon movement during recoil, resulting in a “shotgun pattern” on target. Shooting controlled bursts tightens up the groups somewhat.
Here is a vid where I shoot a normal Half & Half drill, and the group is a lot tighter:
I’ve out a few rounds down range over the years FA, but can’t say I ever had a good technique for firing long bursts into tight groups. I personally was pretty accurate with a two-round burst squeezed off from an M16/M4 or Colt SMG, but three or more always resulted in the third and subsequent rounds going high and right. Like Artic1 said, FA isn’t that practical in a carbine.
I would suggest that you seek out some of these trainers who have a lot of experience with selective fire weapons and go through a class.
Here is what works for me - feet, knees, shoulders and hips square into the threat, feet should width apart, strong foot slightly to the rear, slight bend at the knees and slight bend forward at the waist (yes, I’m from H&K). Your shoulders should be over your toes, weight is forward but if your heels want to (or do) come off the ground you are a little to far. I shoot everything with head fairly erect so the stock ends up high in my shoulder, but key is firm pressure with master grip to the rear, and the support arm forward of the magwell, I’d guess about half-way along the handguards. That way you’ve got some bend in that support arm. Now drive the elbows in towards the centerline of your body, pull into the shoulder with both hands, equalize rearward and downward pressure with your forward (support) arm - think of it as your muzzle rise anchor, Now grunt ‘ungh’ as you use your abs to curl into the weapon and let her rip - if you have a good stance you’ll be able to keep the front sight fairly centered in the aperture.
All that being said, full auto with a shoulder fired rifle is pretty much a waste of ammunition, and if you are in a gunfight, time you can be using to put pairs on the threat.
It is easy to move from the stance I described, it is impossible for me to do extended bursts with anything but an MP5 and expect groups while moving. Educate yourself to get 2 to 3 round bursts.
With a rifle, f you can dump a mag full auto into a 3x5 card at 3 yards you have a good enough stance;
Thanks to everyone who took the time to answer. Lots of great insight here.
26 Inf - I’m especially interested in your vertical grip comment because I do in fact have one mounted on the weapon as I felt like it gave me an additional point of leverage. The PWS upper has a keymod rail system and a gas selector that gets pretty “warm” after 20-30 rounds of fire. Since I don’t wear gloves the vertical grip was a way to deal with the heat without putting insulated panels on it. Sounds like I need to try the weapon using a different configuration.
I also shoot with my my left arm extended pretty far forward in keeping with my 3-gun AR experience. Sounds like i need to explore repositioning my left hand to deal differently with the unique recoil of F/A versus a well tuned 16" carbine firing rapid singles and doubles… Lots to think about.
In general, it also sounds like my expectations in terms of accuracy for a carbine beyond a 2-3 round burst may have been inflated a bit as well (at least for mere mortals vs. highly trained operators). I definitely am comfortable in the 2-3 round burst range that I can control those and keep groups relatively tight but by round 4, it’s starting to walk as described. I’m well enough trained with the Giselle trigger (a great addition vs. the standard mil-spec trigger that came on the lower) to pull doubles and triples without much thought so it sounds like I’ll start there and then just keep training - perhaps with an F/A experienced instructor.
Ref the vertical fore-grip - given my needs for a rifle I don’t need them, I run rifle length free float forearms and don’t have anything but a light to mount - therefore I don’t use them.
My FA experience, beyond playing around in the service, has largely been with the MP5 platform. The size of that weapon pretty much precludes full extension of the support arm, the Sure-Fire Forearms which were the standard weapon light also somewhat dictated a bent support arm.
When I started shooting AR-styles FA, I initially worked with full extension (the way I shoot shotgun and AR), I found it wasn’t as stable for me so I returned to my MP5 roots and it works the best FOR ME. The downside is that in terms of hand and arms it means essentially a different FA and SA stance. Since we have largely gone away from FA - I haven’t taught a select-fire class for about 5 years - it isn’t that big a deal to me.
I don’t have much time beyond fam-fires on Uzi’s, but I was able to wring out a T&E Ruger MP9 when they were in production. Works wise it is pretty much an Uzi and it was the smoothest firing non MP5 I’ve ever shot.
While I agree with everything in your post, the VFG has been useful for me. In extended stings of fire, I have found, while marginal, if technique is used correctly, it vcan be of benefit.
But in all honesty, think of thining the invading horde, not any type of actionable accuracy when done. You and arctic are spot on.
At 7-10 yards with a Mk18, I can keep 29 of 30 rounds in the A-zone of an IPSC target. To be honest, we only did full auto drills to practice recoil management, and never actually used it off the range, as there is limited use for full-auto in a law enforcement scenario, and we used controlled pairs to engage threats. None of the instructors I have ever worked with had us do anything full-auto at 25 yds, so I have no reference point at that distance.
Thanks again everyone. Put a few hundred rounds down range yesterday trying to use some of the tips and insight I got here. Some improvement but more work needed. Actually found I shoot it better suppressed - think it’s probably the extra weight hanging on the end but the “gas face” is pretty bad.
26 Inf, totally with you on the MP5 platform. I’ve got 3 SBR’s in the platform (53, 94, 89) because I shoot it better than any other platform. Unfortunately no full autos as the sears are just scary expensive anymore. I will say that the mini UZI isn’t quite as smooth (I have shot MP5 F/A) being faster and a bit rougher than the roller lock. That said, once mastered, the Mini is simply outstanding in terms of control and putting rounds on target. Takes more initial training to master but once you “get it” it’s an amazing weapon.
Just wanted to tell everyone how much I appreciate the comments - they all help. Matt