? about SBR w/ suppressor

So I’m working up the balls to put in a proposal to allow officers to SBR their personally owned rifles and purchase suppressors. Before I start selling stuff to finance this (kid on the way so no new money), I wanted to make sure I have everything planned out and budgeted for.

I’m looking at the LMT 10.5 upper and full auto bolt carrier with some type of suppressor. What suppressors work well with this upper that are not completely out of my price range (like surefire)? I’d like to to be a quick detach so I was looking at either AAC or Gemtech.

Thanks

IMO, scrap the SBR idea and stick with 16" barrels.

If you really want a SBR, go for the 11.5" barrel. Better velocity, and generally more reliable.

The Gemtech G5 is an excellent can, as is the AAC SCAR-SD

You should also consider the Surefire 556K.

If you dont have your heart set on “quick” mount the OPS INC 15th model would be my choice.

Also, dont forget even though they are for duty use, you’ll have to form 1 your receivers and pay the $200 tax.

I’m aware of the tax stamp even though it’s for duty use. That’s a big chunk of my budget right there. My main goal is to get a rifle I can use for close quarters without blowing out my eardrums. I figured with the short barrel and suppressor, that puts it right around the same length I’m already at. I’m not sure I really want anthing with an overal length longer than 16" with the suppressor.

I have a Colt right now and I am a little leary about mixing uppers and lowers. I figured the LMT it affordable and enough people are using it on Colts that it at least has a working track record. I’d like to have an 11.5 but the only Colt 11.5’s I’ve seen put me past my budget and only come in the lightweight barrel. I’ve been looking at the Bravo Company 11.5 since it’s in the barrel weight I want but I haven’t met enough people who can say they’ve taken one to combat.

I guess my main concern is I’ve heard some of the suppressor manufacturers won’t warrantee the rifles less than 11.5 so I was wondering what people were using on the LMT’s.

A 5.56 SBR is a heck of a lot better than a MP5, but the better overall option is a 16". With the money you save on the stamp, put it towards a Surefire M4556 can.

Stick with the 16" and buy a suppressor. I’m not sure how much “CQB” you end up in, but I bet its not nearly as often a situation where a 16" would be a better choice.

BB493,

        I have been thinking about doing a SBR for a dedicated SWAT carbine for over a year now, and just haven't gotten around to it yet.

        I have owned both the Gem Tech M4-96D and the new Gem Tech G5 (both quick detach).  For a SBR I personally would scrap the quick detach requirement from the equasion and go with something like the Gem Tech M4-02 supressor. 

         The reason I would consider the M4-02 over the M4-96D / G5 for a SBR Patrol Rifle is due to the following reasons:  

-A quick detach generally means higher maintance and cleaning, and some quick detach systems and be tempermental. I like a quick detach for a 14.5" or 16" barrel when I’m going to shoot WITHOUT the suppressor the majority of the time, but prefer a dedicated suppressor on a SBR due to SBR’s being loud and obnoxious.

-With a dedicated suppressor (liked the Gem Tech M4-02) you don’t have to worry about point of impact shift (I expereinced up to 4" - 5" of point of impact shift with the M4-96D on a Colt 16" M4 barrel)

-A dedicated suppressor like the M4-02 is approximately $330 cheaper than a quick detach design. (The Gem Tech M4-02 is $495 + transfer and tax stamp)

-Weight and length. The M4-02 is 16 oz and is 6.25" (if I remember correctly it only adds just under 5" to the over all length of the barrel) vs. the G5 at 21 oz and 7" (adds around 6" to the over all length of the barrel). The M4-96D is 3/4" longer than the G5

-Mounts for a quick detach design are generally $75 - $100 per unit + install and shipping charges (my Gem Tech Bi Lock mount cost me $75 each + $30 shipping both ways + $25 install fee per gun…If Gem Tech does the install and something goes wrong, they will make things right…if a local smith does the work and he screws up your can (ie. baffel strikes, etc) you are S.O.L…I figured having Gem Tech do the work was cheap insurance in the long run)

-SBR’s are generally more reliable (or not as finikey) with a suppressor.

-A suppressor also offers the Patrol Officer many benifits (ie. communication with other officers, not damaging the Officer or other officer’s hearing, blast is not as bad with a suppressor when the muzzle is close to cover, close to other Officers, etc, etc).

         On a Patrol Rifle, I couldn't think of too many circumstances where you would want to remove the suppressor.  Most situations the suppressor would be more of a benifit than a piece of gear that would hinder the officer.


          If I were to do a SBR I would go with a SBR (10.5" or 11.5" of your choice) and something along the lines of a Gem Tech M4-02 for a dedicated suppressor.  

Just my .02

Take care and stay safe,

Thus far you have received some good advice. A thorough balance sheet should be made up to determine if you require an SBR or if a 16" carbine will work better for you. I believe that the reason Steve and I bring this up is because it is very easy for some to get caught up in the “Cool Guy Factor” of the SBR in lieu of being totally honest about one’s individual needs. For many AR shooters it isn’t an issue because no matter the cost, they’re gonna go for the soup of the day. We just like to be sure that those of us without a money tree in the backyard that have a real need for the right tool for the right job, get just that. Although Steve and I don’t always agree, I do concur that an 11.5" barrel is a better choice than a 10.5". As was mentioned velocity, and even moreso, reliability are increased. The only perceivable negative is the exta inch of barrel. In my use and training, I have found that extra inch is virtually without punishment.

As to the suppressors, again, you have received good intel. I would only add the Gemtech HALO to your list of choices. I look at the HALO as one of the better general purpose suppressors. It isn’t especially heavy or long. It can easily be mounted to any carbine with a “NATO 22mm flash hider”. While this may not be a priority in your initial requirements, it is definitely a benefit. And as is always important for LEOs to consider, the price is right. :wink:

Disclaimer: When I wrote my post above I had a few shots of J.D…That being said my reading comprehension is not the best when I’ve been hanging out with Jack Daniels :smiley: Thus there are a few things that I missed in BB493’s post.

Just a few options you may want to consider:

My Department doesn’t allow Patrol Officers (non-SWAT) to use SBR’s or suppressors (SWAT members can use either or both).

That being said, if your Department is progressive enough to allow SBR’s or supressors, that’s awesome.

I see very little application for a SBR in patrol. And please don’t take that statement the wrong way, I don’t want to turn this into a SWAT vs. Patrol thread. A majority of my work in SWAT is CQB missions and for the last 7 1/2 years I’ve used either a 16" barrel or a 14.5" barrel with a perminately attached muzzle devise (16" overall length) for SWAT, and see no REAL need to go with a SBR. I’m 5’06" and have had no major issues in confined spaces with a 16" barreled carbine.

In patrol a majority of the time you will depoly the carbine will be for permiter work (barricaded gunman, bank robbery, etc), felony take downs, etc. A majority of the time you will be out in the open. There are times where you will get to clear a house, school, warehouse, etc (burglary in progress, alarm, open door, etc). In this application I feel that a 16" barrel (when I refer to a 16" barrel I’m refering to a barrel that is 16" or a 14.5" barrel with a muzzle devise that brings the barrel out to 16" overall length) is a better choice.

A few of the down sides to a suppressor:

-Weight: A suppressor can drastically effect the weight and balance of a gun. I have carbines that have balance very well and feel good in the hands, but once a suppressor is added the gun becomes very muzzle heavy, feels unbalanced and cumbersome.

-Heat: Under sustained fire (tactical carbine class, department qualification, etc) a suppressor becomes very hot, extreemly fast. I have read somewhere (either in a manual or on a supressor manufacturer’s website) that for every shot you shoot through a supressor it raises the tempture of the suppressor. So just shooting a mag of 28 rounds raises the temp of the suppressor 210 degrees (and that’s not counting the ambient tempture outside). If the temp outside is 90 degrees and you shoot a 28 round mag though the suppressor it will be approximately 300 degrees. The barrel, forend, upper, lower, and even the buffer tube can be effected by the heat to differing degrees.

-Carbon Build Up: Shooting a suppressor on an AR platform makes the gun extreemly dirty in a very short period of time.

-Noise: In enclosed areas (smaller rooms, hall ways, etc) a suppressor can be suprisingly loud. Not as loud as a non-suppressed gun, but it’s still loud.

-Point of Impact Shift: With most suppressors you are going to experience some degree of point of impact shift. There are many factors involved (ie. suppressor make and model, length of barrel, countour of barrel, etc)

You stated that the main reason you wanted to go with a SBR and a suppressor was to: “My main goal is to get a rifle I can use for close quarters without blowing out my eardrums. I figured with the short barrel and suppressor, that puts it right around the same length I’m already at. I’m not sure I really want anthing with an overal length longer than 16” with the suppressor."

In a law enforcement setting chances are slim to none that the other Officers around you and the bad guy will be using suppressors. But chances are high that if an Officer Involved Shooting occurs that you won’t be the only person shooting. Thus you still want to wear hearing protection.

This may not be the coolest answer, but it may be one of the most cost effective and practical answers:

Have you considered just getting a pair of Peltor Comm-Tacs and put them in your rifle bag?

You could don a pair of Com-Tacs faster than you could put a Q.D. suppressor on a barrel and they will provide hearing protection from your gun, fellow officer’s guns, and the suspects gun. This is something that a suppressor can’t do.

I have had officers fire their carbines with there muzzle 12" or so from the right or left side of my head (think of going down the hall way in your standard house, it’s not practical or possible for 2 grown men to walk shoulder to shoulder down a hall way). There are several instances that I can think of when a team mate may have to be a step or two behind me, off to my left or right, when he brings his rifle up to fire. This puts his muzzle even with the side of my head. Situations like this is where a pair of Peltor’s pay for themselves.

A good set of hearing protection and a pair of eye protection in your rifle bag can go a long way. But that’s a thread in and of it’s self that belongs in the gear section.

I have been wearing Com-Tacs under my helmet on SWAT calls for the last 3 years and have been next to other team members when they have dischared their guns (both pistol and rifles), use of distraction devises, etc. Another advantage of the Com-Tacs is that they amplify the noise around you (ie. people talking, breaking branches, ruffling of leaves, hearing people in the attic when no one else could, etc).

-A LMT upper is $485 and the LMT bolt carrier group is $130

-Tax Stamp for the SBR is $200

-Tax Stamp for the Suppressor is $200

-Suppressor $500 to $1200

Total = approximately $1,515 to $2,215

A few options that may make bugitary constraints a little easier:

-*Instead of getting a complete upper, why not just purchase a new barrel ($250 ro $350 range vs. almost $500 for a new upper)

-*Skip the SBR route and if you don’t like your current barrel, rebarrel the gun with a 16" or 14.5" (with perm. muzzle devise) and purchase a suppressor. This would save you the price of a new upper and the price of the tax stamp on the SBR.

If you are going with a suppressor on a 16" or 14.5" barrel I would suggest something along the lines of a Colt 14.5" M4 SOCOM barrel (heavier profile than the standard M4 Govt countour. Like the ones pictured here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=284588

I recently put the Colt 14.5" M4 SOCOM barrels on all 3 of my Colt LE6920’s. This made a big difference on the point of impact shift on my G5 suppressor. I copied this from another thread I wrote in reference to the M4 SOCOM barrel + suppressor:

There is only 4 oz of difference between the Govt profile barrel and the M4 SOCOM barrel (you can tell a slight difference in weight). A pic of the M4 SOCOM barrel can be seen here:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=284588

The reason I went with the Colt M4 SOCOM barrel (heavier profile) is due to point of impact change when using a suppressor. The shorter and stiffer the barrel is, the less point of impact change you will experience once the suppressor is installed on the barrel.

When using a suppressor, you will experience a point of impact change. All of my guns are sighted in at point of aim / point of impact at 50 yards. Here is what I expereince using the M4-96D and the G5 suppressor using both 16" M4 profile barrel and the heavier Colt 14.5" SOCOM barrel:

When I was using the M4-96D in conjunction with the Colt 16" M4 profile barrel, my point of impact was low and to the right (between 4 and 5 o’clock) and approximately 4" low at 50 yards.

After the M4-96D was converted to the G5, the G5’s point of impact shifted to approximately 3" low at 6 o’clock using the same barrel at the same distance (host guns were 2 Colt LE6920’s).

After switching to the Colt 14.5" M4 SOCOM barrel with the Gem-Tech G5, the groups are only approximately 1/2" between 5 and 6 o’clock at 50 yards.

BTW, the Gem-Tech Bi-Loc flash suppressor when perminately attached to a 14.5" barrel makes the barrel’s overall length just over 16".

-*Stick with your current 16" barrel and get a Surefire suppressor. www.impactguns.com has the Surefire suppressor for $1,045 + the $200 tax stamp. This would save you the cost of a SBR tax stamp and the cost of a new barrel or upper. The advantage of the Surefire is that it’s a back over the barrel design, is fairly light, has very little point of impact shift, and only extends 3.75" past the end of the muzzle (because approximately half of the suppressor goes back over the barrel)

-*Scrap both the SBR and suppressor projects and set up your current carbine the way you want it and have enough money for a 2nd carbine.

Just my opinion: For a Patrol carbine I would invest in a pair of Peltor Com-Tacs that I would keep in my rifle bag and scrap the SBR and the suppressor idea and use the funds to set my current carbine up exactly the way I wanted and if I had enough money left over I would purchase a 2nd carbine to use as a back up (incase my primary went down during training, was at the gunsmith, etc).

If you look at the big picture, a good set of electronic hearing protection cost as much as a tax stamp and the benifits of good hearing protection for a Patrol or SWAT Officer FAR outweight the benifits of a suppressor or a SBR (and that’s not to say that suppressors and SBR are not desireable tools in a LEO setting, it’s just you get so much more “bang” for your buck with a good set of electronic hearing protection).

But there are so many options out there that you really can’t go wrong. You just need to find out what works best for you and get the best gear you can afford.

That being said, my answer is not the only answer and opinions vary based on personal preference, mission statement, and personal experience.

Good luck

Take care and stay safe,

Sorry for the long post and all the rambling :wink:

great posts !!

Jeff, as usual, that was a great post.

I think I’ve just about decided to scrap my suppressor/sbr plans.

Now a suppressor for that .22 pistol is a whole other story… :smiley:

Thanks for the replies. I’m still kind of set on doing this though. I’m basing this on my neighbor with the R0933 and a friend with a Jet suppressor. I’ve seen SBR’s and suppressors independent of each other but have no personal experience using the SBR and suppressor together. We had a few SBR’s at a class we hosted last year and I really like the way they handled. The one officer who had a mount for a Gemtech didn’t bring the suppressor with him (was in use by another officer) but he seemed to like it. I was hoping KevinB would chime in since he was using the basic set up I’m interested in (although I think I’ll avoid the non-US made cans).

As for my department allowing this, right now there is no policy and no one has brought up the issue. I have a really good track record of getting the impossible approoved so the other officers who are interested are asking me to put this in motion.

I plan on buying a new upper instead of cutting the barrel because I still want to have my 16" upper. Especially if I take any classes in non-class 3 friendly states.

As for the recomendation of getting another rifle…well…I’d actually be funding this by selling my M1A that I don’t shoot very much anymore and cashing in my change jar (I almost completely payed off an engagement ring and four new tires with saved up loose change). I know, never sell a gun. I’m doing some reorganization of my guns so I’m selling or trading the ones that either don’t come out to play or don’t serve as backups.

Oh yeah, I do have a set of Peltor Tac6’s that my wife gave me for my birthday. I’ve had those and a set of earplugs in my rifle case but it never seems I have enough time to grab them with the rifle. I think I might stick some in my stock though. I also have a second AR and I can always grab a department rifle if I needed one.

Thanks again for the advise.

The only reason I like SBR’s is for doorkicking roles or vehicle jobs - both of which my job entailed (a job that ends today).

I have no LE experience so I will default to Jeff’s advice for the Patrol rifle (and it echo’s buddies who are LE’s experience as well).

If I can convince them to actually make these, the 14th model OPS INC suppressor, IMO is the best choice for a SBR, for as Kevin stated - what an SBR is used for.

Not supre quiet, but quiet enough to serve its purpose and not destroy the shooters hearing.

These are both 11.5" barrels, mine with the 14th model, and Eric’s set up for a AAC SCAR-SD.

I really enjoy my 10.5 inch LMT right now. I would say go for it. I would buy it over right away if I was without one. 11.5 will have an extra margin of gentleness on the silencer, but I have not had any problems with my 10.5.

Short barrels do punish silencers with the hot gas but it makes for a compact package.

Some suppressors take the punishment better than others.

What about it? That looks like .308 was shot on an AR10 though a 5.56mm can.

What really seems to have happened though is ammo fragments exploded all over the blast baffle. They certainly did not go through the little hole in the center.

Strange, I don’t see any projectile fragments. Looks like the blast baffle melted.

I think the fragments fell out before the photo was taken.

Are you calling Shivan a liar?

quoted for posterity.