AAR: TigerSwan 5 Day Carbine/Pistol- September 2008

Dealers/ Manufacturers/ Regional/ Info TigerSwan
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Took me a while to finally get to this due to scheduling and being sick.

Thanks to zushwa of http://www.greygrouptraining.biz for inviting me down to this course, we had previously spoken about the quality of instruction with Brian Searcy and TigerSwan and he was absolutely right, I can’t think of any other course I’ve taken that’s made me a better shooter in such a short amount of time. I’m glad I went and would gladly take another course with these guys again and would recommend them to anybody who’s looking for solid training.

The weather was a challenge thanks to Hurricane Ike so we spent the majority of the 5 days either in hot humid NC heat or hot humid NC rain.

For those that don’t know Brian Searcy spent the majority of his 20+ years in the Army with their most elite Special Operations Unit retiring as a Command Sergeant Major. He was also a top level competitive shooter with a whole list of accomplishments. You can read more about it on the website: http://www.tigerswan.biz

Class: Nominally restricted to MIL or LE but had 9 students including Bob, a TigerSwan employee who handles their Law Enforcement Initiatives. A couple of Cumberland County SWAT cops and the rest were military, almost all were soldiers from nearby Ft. Bragg with multiple tours in OEF/OIF.

Instructors: Besides Brian we also had TC (also a retired Sgt. Major from Special Operations) and JD, a former SF guy.

Format of the class was pretty straight forward, pistol work in the morning followed by carbine in the afternoon. Pistol work starts at 25 yards, everyday. Carbine starts at 100 yards, everyday. Targets used were mainly the NRA 25 yd. bullseye targets, this was for both the pistol and carbine work. Emphasis was on marksmanship each day before moving on to the tactics portion of the class, which was really just applying your marksmanship skills while moving, assuming different positions, engaging multiple targets, etc. This goes along with his belief that his old unit didn’t do any “high speed” training, they just did the basics very well under any conditions on demand. Throughout the course one thing that sticks out is the instructors will demo everything they teach believing that its better to show the students the right way to do it rather than just telling them.

I didn’t take great notes as far as the different drills and when we did them but this is at least an overview.

Usually most classes start at 5 or 7 yds. with shooting at 25 beginning later in the class but Searcy has students start at 25 yds. regardless of skill level since this allows the instructors to see what students need improvement on immediately. Shooting too close can mask shooter errors such as poor trigger control. Start at 25, identify the problems, fix them and then continue with the class.

One thing I found different from other courses I’ve taken is that initially, there is no emphasis on “train as you fight”, meaning they want you to take off all the gear, this includes something as innocuous as gloves. The reason being, in a crawl-walk-run methodology, if you can’t shoot with gloves off then what makes you think you can shoot with gloves on? And if you shoot with gloves on all the time, what happens when you don’t have gloves?

Which is not to say that they aren’t above using any tool available to help the students shoot better since they freely recommend using things like sure grip and sight black to help isolate shooter errors since there are so many aspects to proper pistol shooting, e.g. stance, grip, sight alignment, trigger control, etc. We also did ball and dummy drills every morning, while this initially seemed tedious it actually reinforces the training since you get to remind yourself everyday of how much more practice you need as well as watching your fellow students. Think of it as a 30 minute investment in training that pays for itself over the next 7 and a half hours :wink:

Brian Searcy shooting the NRA Bullseye targets

Students shooting a drill for score under watchful eyes of TigerSwan cadre. Note the timer; everything is either graded by accuracy or time.

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Over the 5 days, we worked pistol drills from 25 to 3 yds. including kneeling and prone positions, reloads, malfunction clearances, strong hand only & weak hand only. We worked some drills with multiple targets including the El Presidente as well as more “basic” exercises like shooting on the move. TigerSwan does not emphasize tac reloads, preferring that students continue to shoot until they run dry so they have the opportunity to train the emergency reload when they don’t expect it.

Cumberland County SWAT officer shooting around barricade, weapon is dept. issued Glock 21

Instructors taking their turn on a Modified Bianchi Cup drill

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For Carbines we went over the normal lectures on equipment malfunctions, slings, lights and optics. Optics were predominantly Eotechs along with 2 Aimpoints.

Shooting commenced at 100 yards for zero confirmation and we worked our way in while going to different positions such as sitting and kneeling as well as offhand. TigerSwan teaches the aggressive bladed stance rather than a squared up stance.

Format was the same as with pistol, work on marksmanship and accuracy before moving on to more tactical shooting. We shot on paper for the majority of the class with a little bit of shooting on steel toward the end of the class.

Shooting on the move was emphasized and one of the abiding lessons for me was “if you’re not shooting, you are on the gas!”. Do everything as fast as humanly possible without sacrificing safety or accuracy.

Student engaging multiple targets while moving laterally left to right.

TigerSwan instructor running a drill with the students

Demoing the Zig Zag drill, note the VFG all the way out, the Eotech and VTAC upper. He also related that he used the same HK mags for the last few years of his career and had no problems with them (other than the extra weight) including multiple deployments to the sandbox.

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Great to see the TS guys using a lot of setups/rigs/equipment that most “traditional” tactical guys would say is strictly for competition and has no tactical application (i.e. use of timers, free float/non-railed handguards, etc.).

Rich

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There were a few equipment problems, several students had Eotechs come off their weapons which prompted TC to explain the importance of loc-tite and witness marks. Several students (myself included) had problems with poor quality ammo.
For example, I had one rifle that would work fine with Brown Bear .223 and another that would choke. One brand new Daniel Defense factory assembled upper choked and forced the student to use a loaner weapon from Grey Group. A few students had PMAGS; some worked better than others… despite Magpul’s excellent customer service the general attitude was it wasn’t worth sending back. I didn’t necessarily agree with it but understand why since you want your equipment to work right now.

One student had a S&W M&P15 with a rail (Samson?) that was installed by the shop at Gander Mountain, suffice to say that he started seeing some problems with it short stroking. A trip to Shooter’s in Fayetteville (which ended up being the de facto gunsmithy for the class) revealed the rail was installed incorrectly leading to the gas tube being off center.

Majority of the pistols in class were Glocks and a few students had front sights that either worked their way loose or came off completely. Classes like these are an excellent way to test your equipment as well as your ability to use it.

I started off with an Aimpoint but by the end of the class was using my Eotech as much as I could. While I understand the concept of a 4 MOA dot vs. a 1 MOA dot at 100 yards being scientifically insignificant I will tell you that I shot better with the smaller dot. Also the hash marks on the outside of the 65 MOA ring can serve as an indicator if I’m canting the rifle, which isn’t as evident at closer ranges but starts to have an effect as you get farther out.

I also used an HSGI modular shoulder harness loaded with Tactical Tailor single mag shingles and an HSGI bleeder pouch. I saw one last year on the same range during a different class and decided to try it out. It worked OK but I was definitely slower on the reloads.

I was using an older Redi-Mag and found that if I did all my emergency reloads from that and backfilled the Redi-Mag from the pouch it worked very well. The pouches on my strong side interfered with my pistol draw and was aware of before the class but didn’t get it sorted out in time. Either I move my holster off the belt and on to a drop leg or I move the pistol to a different location altogether, work in progress.

OG “on the gas”- and I’m not talking about the 107’s.
Retired NYPD cop and retired ARNG Sgt. Major. Went to RVN with the Air Cav, got out and came back in to a Reserve SF Group (12th?) before going out to 20th SF Group in MA for a few years. 60+ years old and still learning…and training.

TigerSwan Instructor adjusting buttstock position for BSR, right to left lateral movement to engage multiple targets.

Engaging multiple obscured targets (on the move?) while applying the fundamentals of marksmanship, oh, and remember your offset.

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Very good AAR, thanks for sharing.

TS is on my short list to train with and I hope to make it in 2009.

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One of the Cumberland County SWAT guys was kind enough to let us do a quick fam fire with his suppressed UMP 45.

Brass extracted from barrel with a chamber brush:

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Sounds like an outstanding class.

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Walkback drill with pistol

TC shot Strong Hand Only with his custom 1911 up to about the 100 yd mark before dropping a shot and switching over to a two handed grip.

Cumberland County SWAT officer who won the walkback drill in sudden death with his issued Glock 21.

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Brian Searcy watching a student shoot from the barricade kneeling position

Shooting over the top of a barricade.

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Awesome AAR … I had the opportunity to do there 2 day pistol class in June. We pretty much did the same drills as far as pistol goes and yes it was “Hotter than Satan’s hand shake” out there. Besides that I agree with you on the quality of marksmanship Tiger Swan gives. I would recommend this to anyone who is interested in improving there marksmanship abilities.

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treehopr thanks for posting this AAR. It looks like you guys had fun and also learned a lot. I will be in a closed 3 day carbine/pistol class with BS and crew next week in Gastonia. This AAR is just what I needed to hold me over till then.:cool:

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Thanks to all for the feedback, there was obviously a lot more information than I was able to cover.

The scored and timed drills definitely give you a progress check throughout the course. Focus on being accurate, once you get there the instructors will encourage you to speed it up since you’re probably taking too much time, once the groups start to open up then you refocus on accuracy. Constant cycle of improvement and it works.

Plus with the low student to instructor ratio you will get some individual attention, I’ve been to some classes where the instructor will watch me, say something like “you’re slapping the trigger” and move on to the next student.

That’s not a knock on the instructor(s) since there’s only so much you can do with a large class but the pace/learning environment is such that you will definitely get some one on one coaching if you need it.

It also helped that the class had a very good base line skill level and there were no problem children to distract anybody. I felt privileged to shoot with these guys and would gladly take this class again.

Oh, and the next time I catch myself bitching about the cost of ammo I’ll have to ask myself when the last time I dry fired…it’ll definitely reveal any bad habits that are still ingrained.

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There is a lot of EOTech bashing going on these days by those who prefer Aimpoints.

I notice that BS, like other guys in his circle, is running an EOTech on his rifle. Did he discuss the advantages of the EOTech over an Aimpoint?

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Hello Treehopr,

I have several questions.

  1. How are they using the shot timer with two shooters? Is there resonable time between shotters 1 and 2 to figure who shot first to record the times?

  2. NC swat guy is gripping pistol with right hand shooting around the barrier from the left. How was his accuracy? Is that recommended over switching hands(where time restraints an issue)?

  3. noticed one persons rifle had a muzzle break. Can a technique or grip control muzzle flip? What is your opinion?

  4. Are most shots taken single or double taps?

Hopefully these are not corny questions.

Take care,
Michael

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Let me rephrase the question…

if there are such issues, why is B. Searcy (and Kyle Lamb, among others) running one? With his background and hopefully a good sense of what does/doesn’t work, I would tend to value their “endorsements”

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Boss Hogg,

It wasn’t specifically discussed but I know that both TC and JD felt that Eotechs were faster and more accurate. Since the majority of the class had Eotechs there wasn’t much as far as debating which one was better. As a point of fact none of the instructors had anything negative to say about the Aimpoint and I believe every one of them had used it in the past (Searcy and TC used the older 3 moa version if I remember correctly).

I ran an Aimpoint with one upper and an Eotech with another, I felt I shot better with the Eotech. YMMV.

The points that were made regarding all optics was to use Loc-tite, use witness marks in case screws/knobs come loose and to have a means of getting the optic off the receiver without the use of a tool. They also discussed knowing what your hold offs were at different ranges, the Eotech makes it a bit easier because of the 65 MOA ring.

JD, the TigerSwan instructor with the kryloned Eotech bought that sight with his own money and deployed to Iraq/Afghanistan 3 different times and its still functional. He did have problems with the zeroing and believes that the adjustment dial(s) are failing.

The VTAC uppers and Eotechs they were using for the class were personally purchased items if that’s any indication.

I know that I can run an Aimpoint and be fine, the question for me is whether I can run an Eotech and be better… and if its worth the corresponding trade offs in reliability/battery life.

I have an Eotech 552 that’s been through about 6 classes in the last 2 years including the Vickers/Hackathorn LL, Paul Howe’s AHR (no live fire), Bennie Cooley x3 and the TigerSwan class. It’s probably seen about 5-6 thousand rounds in that time period and it has never given me a problem, I think I changed the batteries on it once. I’m confident in this particular sight and my ability to use it but wouldn’t feel short changed if I had to use one of my Aimpoints.

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Not sure if that makes sense.

Hope this helps.

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Treehopr,

Awesome AAR and glad to see FINALLY an understanding of why, in the competition world, we do what we do and use what we use and that there IS a tactical application to events like 3-Gun/Multi-Gun.

Spot on too on your assessment of the EOTech. I’ve used carried everything in theatre and on this last deployment chose a TA01NSN w/ a JPoint mounted on my rail with a custom mount. It’s what I use in 3-Gun and so the transition was natural and fast (with the exception of the rail handguard but I have to obviously mount extra junk in the real world).

Rich

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Treehopr,

Thanks very much for the AAR.

As for the Aimpoint vs. EOTech debate, people need to remember that no red dot sight is infallible. I had a Comp M soil the bed due to a loose internal switch. Aimpoint fixed it.

After LASIK I get more “bloom” from red dots, and the larger the dot, the larger the bloom. Therefore, I find EOTech preferable.

But I certainly wouldn’t kick an Aimpoint out of bed. :smiley: