AAR: Progressive FORCE Concepts, Carbine 1&2, May 3-5 - CT

I originally posted this on ARFCOM, but since there are a number of folks who are members on both sites and some others who went to the PFC course the week before when it was held in New York, I thought it would be worthwhile to re-post.

I attended the Progressive FORCE Concepts (PFC) Defensive Carbine and Combative Carbine Skills training held May 3-5 in Wallingford, Connecticut. This was my 3rd carbine class, but my first with PFC. I had the opportunity last spring to train with Ray and Gerry in a 3-day pistol course that I found to be the best firearm course I had taken to date. When Ray said that he would be bringing PFC carbine training to Connecticut, I was very excited to say the least.

The class was broken up into 2 elements – Day 1 was Defensive Carbine, Day 2 & 3 were Combative Carbine Skills. There were students who just signed up for Day 1, just signed up for days 2 & 3, and folks like me who went for the whole three days. I was very glad that I did. PFC is a company that not only trains military, government, law enforcement, and private citizens; they also have an operational division. The impressive cross-section of experience of their staff, combined with real world operational, no BS instruction is a major plus. Not flame intended, but they’re not there to sell any product – just to make everyone they train become more proficient and have the best chance of surviving and prevailing in a combative encounter. Up front, students are told that “always” and “never” will not be things that they hear much of during the course. “What saves your ass on Monday will get you killed on Tuesday” was one quote that struck a chord. The bad guys don’t follow a screenplay, so neither should you. Also, Ray at least twice said, “Don’t believe anything we say. Go home and put this all through your BS filter and decide whether it’s good to go or not.”

Day 1 was way more than just “Carbine 101.” We started the morning promptly at 8am and the four PFC instructors introduced themselves – Ray, Gerry, Chris, and Mike. (I’ll let you read their bios. The backgrounds bring a lot to the table and they all worked together very well.) After the introductions, came the safety briefing, followed shortly thereafter with an overview of proper weapon maintenance & lubrication. This part was worth a million bucks because it seems like carbine maintenance is one of the most argumentative subjects out there, a lot of it by well-meaning, but ill-informed individuals. It was explained in very simple terms and demonstrated. From there, the discussion turned to accessories, optics, and why it’s important to buy quality stuff. These guys see hundreds of firearms go through their courses per month, so they have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. There was also a discussion on use of force in self defense that was really good. They even catered it to include discussions on Connecticut law since all of us were Connecticutish… Connecticutians… Connecticutters… whatever.

Before we hit the range for zeroing, someone made a comment about slings, and Ray replied that PFC does not run slings on their guns. <insert gasp here> Their philosophy is very simple; A sling is like a holster, it brings your weapon to the fight and stores it after the fight. Would you keep your holster attached to your pistol while you’re using it? Then why would you keep your sling attached to your rifle? The argument was made that slings have a limited use – when you’re in a situation where you require retention such as… on a helicopter… on a ship… climbing… etc. Other than that, they may be more of a limiter than anything else – it can get hung up on stuff, prevent you from quickly changing positions, and prevent you from using your rifle as an impact or non-projectile weapon. If you can challenge the paradigm that, “I need a sling on my rifle at all times”, you may find that you’re better off, faster, and more efficient. I will let other students speak for themselves, but at the end of Day 3, I don’t think I saw any slings on any guns.

After everyone was zeroed, we covered ready positions, reloads, transitions, and transfers all in pretty short order as the class was moving along very well despite a fairly varied experience level. The instructors provided the appropriate amount of attention to individuals throughout the course and adjusted based on our output. With the four instructors present, they really did “see everything”, so if you needed attention, guidance, or motivation, you got it. One thing that was evident early on in Day 1 was that everything you learned needed to be retained and used throughout the course. It was all about thinking for your self and putting it together.

One of the drills that has become synonymous with PFC is “malfunction junction.” I had previously been through the junction in Ray & Gerry’s pistol course so I knew what to expect. I was both looking forward to it and fearing it. Just prior to actually running the junction, the instructors pulled everyone in for an explanation and demo of malfunction clearing… failure to fire, failure to unlock, failure to extract , double-feed, and the deadly brass over bolt were covered. In the explanation portion, some real world examples of these malfunctions are given, as well as some explanations of what causes them. After the demos are completed, the instructors take 6 rifles, 4 loaded magazines, and take about 5 minutes to set them up. The entire class lines up to take turns running through the junction. The task is to pick up each rifle and attempt to fire a standard defensive response, resolve any malfunctions (if needed), make the rifle safe, and move to the next one. Once the student gets to the 3rd rifle, the next student in line starts. If you get passed… it is bad. Oh yeah, and as you’re trying to go through the course, the instructors are applying a certain level of “encouragement” and even tell you to do the wrong thing just to throw you off track. If they grab you on the shoulder, it’s real guidance because of safety issue or a fatal level of frustration. Malfunction Junction has got to be one of the best training tools I’ve seen, and the instructors took the time to show students how to set it up if they wanted to run it at home.

Day 2 & 3 had some new faces and we jumped right in with a review of shooting responses, multiple threat engagements, reactive movement, and traveling movement. We also saw a lot more of transfers and transitions. The instructors would break up the class into two relays during some courses of fire, but ran most of the relays next to each other which kept the whole class moving. We saw the dual relays a lot during the traveling movement portion. Another thing I liked was that you’d be getting ready to go on your 2nd time through the evolution thinking “okay, I’m going to go through this one with a full rifle magazine and this is gonna be cake.” Just then, an instructor would come up next to you, rip the magazine out of your rifle and tell you to transfer it to your support side and handle it as a failure to fire.

Students were urged to make their own decisions based on the range of engagement and their skill/comfort level on whether to reload or transition. On several occasions, a cease fire would be called to reinforce the real world aspects of what we were doing. For example, I was completing an “Advancing L” drill, and when I transitioned to my pistol, I rushed and was sloppy with my handgun accuracy. Ray called me on it and reminded me (and the class) that lawyers are attached to every round that we fire. Same thing applied to students who were reloading their rifle when their threat was at close range. “Why wouldn’t you transition to your handgun when your threat is this close?” The PFC instructors took every opportunity to keep us in the real world mindset.

Barricade tactics and the “Art of Exposure” proved to be a challenging part of Day 3. Like the rest of the course, the instructors were anxious to let the students figure it out for themselves after some demos. Depending on your flexibility, body type, and comfort level, everyone handled the barricades a little differently and with one instructor per barricade, there was plenty of advice, coaching, and commentary as you worked your way through them. We even saw a ninja move or two. One of the barricades was basically the size of a picnic table bench that was tipped over on its side which pretty much dominated everyone. That barricade was one that you really could not manage with a sling without going full retard… and you never want to go full retard.

Before ending the day, we got into team tactics which was nothing short of awesome. We finished out Day 3 with one final run through malfunction junction. No expense was spared with the amount of misleading advice and BS that was fed to the students working their way through this time around, especially for the guys who had been there for all 3 days. Some gems that were shouted out were “check the brightness on the Aimpoint”, “that’s not a malfunction, that’s just a DPMS”, “don’t just stare at it, eat it”, and “work the charging handle a few more times, that’ll fix it.” As a display of support, students waiting for their chance to run the junction went into a front leaning rest, did flutter kicks, and there was even an appearance of Star-Man. I can easily say that everyone that went through the junction on Wednesday had vastly improved over the course of the 3 days which was a huge confidence builder. For fun, each of the instructors ran through the junction after the students and we had our opportunity to heckle them, which we took full advantage of. A little blood was spilled because of how I set up one of the malfunctions (brass over bolt) but we paid witness to the meaning of the “not dead, don’t quit” saying that we heard from PFC, by watching Ray do everything possible to get the rifle going, and he did.

What I liked the most:

Constantly reinforced training with real world mindset – getting out of the square range & paper mentality.

Extremely positive attitude of the instructors. These guys love what they’re doing, and it’s contagious. They make you want to be awesome.

Pace of the class was very good. Breaks were just enough to top off mags, pound some water, and stuff a granola bar in your stomach.

Safety level was high. They run a hot range and do it very safely.

There was no “our way is the only way” mantra. Encouraged to try new things, but put it through the BS filter.

What I liked the least:

Zeroing exercise on Monday went a little slow.

I had to go back to work on Thursday.

Went to the beach and my wife said that with the amount of bruises and cuts on me, I looked like a battered wife.

I have to wait until August to take the next PFC course in Connecticut

Equipment notes:

1100 rounds – Tula 55gr FMJ

250-300 rounds 9mm (WWB)

I ran a PWA lower, LMT upper, with a BCM BCG. Aimpoint T-1 with LaRue BUIS. I had one malfunction over 3 days which was due to using a cartridge with a damaged case.

Handgun was a Gen 3 Glock 19, only mod is Heinie sights.

16” AR-type rifles dominated the course, with the exceptions being a Kel-Tec Sub2000, a SIG 556 (SCM), and a UMP clone.

I tried to keep track of problems that other students had with their guns and the few that I saw were…

  • Doubling from two Olympic lowers
  • Unstaked castle nut came loose
  • Upper crapped out and had to be pulled off the line, I believe it was Del-Ton, unknown BCG

great AAR, very thorough, this is a good model of an AAR, you seem to have covered a lot of details on what to expect (i have a hard time remembering everything to cover).

I was shocked by the sling thing, what do they do when there primary goes down? Just troublshoot it on the fly? I can see requiring a QD, but it seems like instead of thinking of “Would you keep your holster attached to your pistol while you’re using it” it would be more like not having a holster on your belt since the sling is there for when your not or cant use it.

Thanks! I made notes at the end of each day otherwise I would have had a hard time too.

Regarding the no sling philosophy, it’s actually way more natural than I imagined it’d be. The answer to troubleshoot/reload/transition is “it depends” because it really does. This goes back to their “don’t get wrapped around the axle of ‘always’ and ‘never.’”

For example, if you’re 25 yards away from a threat, you’re not going to stop and troubleshoot your primary, you’re more likely to transition and deal with the threat while you seek cover or egress, right? But what if your threat is a guy with a Remington 700, screw transitioning, maybe you just flat out run for cover and not transition at all. What if he’s got a Jennings .25 auto and he’s in the open? What if you’re behind good cover and have a teammate who can cover you? It depends.

That real world mindset that PFC tried to instill in us was really evident with one litmus test; “Would I want to be the guy who fights against me while I’m doing x?” If the answer is yes, then that’s a bad idea.

To be clear, PFC did not advocate doing away with a sling completely as part of your kit, but the question of why it’s attached to you and your rifle 100% of the time is a good one to ask. I wore my single point for the entire course and I hooked up for maybe a total of 10 minutes over the 3 days. It’s there if you need it and like you said, if you’ve got a QD point, it’s easy to use it if needed. But when you’re in a gunfight, is your sling making your more effective, more deadly, and helping you win the fight? I think a lot of us found that it was more of an obstacle and that it slowed us down and/or reduced options. Speed of weapon transfer from dominant side to support side, and ability to move into a different shooting position was instantly increased by a whole bunch.

The transition from primary to secondary is very straightforward; with your support hand, move the primary down to about pocket height against your body (out of your working space) and your dominant hand goes to your secondary. Your primary stays completely under your control the entire time. Versus having a single point or two point, there’s a distinct advantage in not having to gravity drop and stow your rifle like you would with a sling; You’re putting it exactly where you want it. If you need to run, it’s not awkard. I was skeptical, but I gave it a shot and I’m absolutely a fan.

Hope this helps!

that sounds like a standard transition, but if it’s not slung, do you just hold it with your support hand while firing one handed?

You got it.

and when your secondary goes dry?

SHat your pants…:wink:

Depends on the situation. We trained a couple of different ways…

If you’re traveling during the engagement, you might want to just run full speed for your destination or for cover.

If you need to continue the engagement, you might want to dump your primary and reload your handgun. I ended up in this situation - all I did was drop my rifle out of my support hand and my hand was already right next to my pistol mag carrier. Reloading was “normal” and I completed the engagement with 2 hands.

If you can, you could also fix your primary. It all just depends on your threat and your situation.

interesting

I was considering taking one of their carbine courses locally, this has me thinking twice about it.

Care to explain why?

Um, the exchange in the last few posts about transitioning without a sling?

Same boat. The no sling thing is a bit odd to me.

So you would write off everything else they have to offer because something they do may chalenge soething you do? I ran a sling for the majority of the class. Only a few times did I disconnect it. No one is forcing you to ditch a sling. If it works for you fine if not fine.

I think it’s funny that so many focus on such small things.

So are you saying you attended the class as well? Do you have anything constructive to contribute to the AAR that may help some of us understand better as to why the no sling theory is being taught? What where your overall impressions of the class and how did you benefit from it? Have you taken any other classes, from whom, and how did this compare to what you’ve been taught in the past?

The reason this approach is being questioned is that it runs contrary to what the vast majority of other trainers are espousing in their curriculum.

I’m not focusing on small things, but when a training school has an odd technique or practice it makes me wonder about the rest of their curriculum.

That being said, I’m very good friends with their director of VIP services, and I know a few other higher ups with their company. I’ll talk to them and make my decision from there.

Yes, I was also in this class. I thought the AAR was well written which is why I didn’t really feel the need to add anything. I have taken two classes before this one. No big name trainers, though I am signed up for a Vickers Class in Oct.

As far as the sling thing goes. I think the biggest reason they don’t run slings is because it hinders movement. They do a lot of shooting from both sides instead of focusing everything on just strong side shooting. The slings make transfers slower. The slings hinder weapons manipulation in general. They stated that they will run slings in certain circumstances but not all the time.

I personally run a single point sling. Most instructors tend to go for 2-point adjustibles. I has a Vickers sling at one point and just did not ike it. I prefer the single point and I will continue to run the single point. I wouldn’t pass on a course just because the instructor strongly prefers a two-point.

The sling thing was such a small part of the class but it seems to be the biggest issue that anyone who hasn’t taken the class has. I found the instructors to be very excellent and the stundent to instructor ratio was great as well. This was good for getting feedback on what you were doing wrong and correcting it.

I’m just saying I wouldn’t write them off over something like the slings. They are not forcing you to do it “their way.” They are asking you to try it and decide for yourself. I think that’s plenty reasonable.

I think I benifited from this class for a few reasons. There was a lot of decision making that had to be made that wasn’t just structured for you. In the movement drills it was left open to you to decide the response to the threat, how you were going to move through, what you were going to do if the primary ran dry, etc. The first class I ever took was very structured. Do this now then wait for the next command sort of thing. Whicle it helped in establishing the basics it doesn’t let you think on your own.

It’s hard for me to boil down three days into a few paragraphs so I’m sure I’m just not recalling things that I did learn and store away somewhere. But support side shooting, shooting and moving, engaging threats to your side while moving towards a point in front of you, check/cover drills with a partner, shooting from various baracades in various positons, etc. These were all things that added to the learning process.

I brought a mindset to the class that allowed me to take away from it as well. I went in with an open mind wanting to learn. I had read many of the EAG AARs on another site and had got an idea of how you should treat these classes. Because of that I didn’t treat it as a competition or shooting class I treated it as a fighting with a firearm class. Just because I completed a failure to stop drill I didn’t drop my rifle down and relax and wait for the next round. I “stayed in the fight.” I think too many people only look to these classes as shooting classes and it’s so much more than that. Overall I think the mindset that you bring to a class is just as important as the instructor and the material.

Maybe look at it from this angle: you’re under no obligation to go slingless. That’s been stated pretty clearly.

More often than not, I’m in a training course because I paid to be there. The instructors aren’t paying me, and I’m not getting paid by work to attend. Outside of safety to personnel and damage to equipment/facilities, they have no viable authority over you in any practical sense.

Those of us that come from a military background are, far more often than not, required to utilize a sling. Ergo, we learn to run the gun in that fashion. I don’t think that that’s the mindset from which their no-sling aspect stems, and I get where it’s coming from and the application. It makes some sense, from a middle-of-the-night-grab-gun-and-go standpoint.

That said, I personally know that I like running slings, and for those instances where I need to ditch the gun, I got a QD sling for those limited instances. I also know just how much authority any given instructor does and does not have over me, so I further know that if one were to tell me, “I want you to take that sling off,” I can respond with some version of “Well, I want my wedding tackle to instantly gain an inch of girth. Sounds like we both need to get used to disappointment, huh?” Level of politeness would vary depending on the demeanor of the instructor in question.

Point being, I don’t think anybody gains anything here by pinging those that attended the course about the methodology of those running said course. If you don’t like some >3% OPTIONAL aspect out of the 100% of the curriculum as described, then don’t take their classes. It’s freakin’ AMERICA, man…

Or…and I know this is, like, tooootally Out There…start thinking. Example: You could ask as to whether or not said instructors were still providing instruction to their students on how to mitigate the disadvantages they see a sling having to those students that may or may not have opted to continue using their sling of choice.

Rider & irishluck – I am sorry to hear that you are rethinking your plans to train with us simply because of our training philosophy regarding slings.

I want to reiterate and clarify what rgaper has put into his very comprehensive AAR and his experience training with us. Our open programs and restricted programs are in-briefed with the instructions to the students that everything we say should be put through their respective “BS Filters” and the concepts we instruct will fall into 2 categories:

  1. Concepts will compliment student’s previous training;
  2. Concepts will conflict and, at times, diametrically oppose, student’s previous training.

All we ask is that students apply the Pepsi Challenge to what we are instructing and try it out. We don’t want robots, we don’t want parrots; we want decision makers and ultimately, fighters who are more effective with their mindset, skill at arms and tools.

Our principles are very simple: Does a concept, TTP or piece of gear make you more accurate, faster and more lethal? If a concept, TTP or piece of gear fails to fulfill, enhance or otherwise compliment one’s skill at arms, it needs to go away.

Through training, experience and our own professional development, we have found that the present incarnation of slings, their configuration and placement hampers many shooters from conforming to cover, bilateral operation, weapon manipulation (including the controls) and taking advantage of different readies and carries dependent on the environment. Not to mention the ability to use the carbine as an impact/contact/grappling weapon when circumstances do not justify lethal force. We have found slings significantly limit the LTL use of the system and options wrt weapon retention. With that being said, we let the shooters decide what works for them and their circumstances. At no time does any of the staff instruct or mandate that students remove their slings and we only provide our opinion when prompted, with valid reasons why. Again, one of our philosophies is not only to show the HOWs but also the WHYs.

Invariably, we have seen our programs test a student’s choice in gear and equipment. Many times, the range looks like a yard sale as students remove gear that has slowed their ability to effectively deliver lethal force. Rarely, has a course of instruction concluded and not have a student brief back to us that the program had them rethinking their use and choice of gear. Slings are not exempt from their feedback.

Not only part of our name, but also how we approach our curriculum and TTPs; we continually test and evaluate everything we do and instruct. To that end, we have “progressively” changed equipment and load out requirements. At one time, we did instruct and include a sling (recommended a single point) in our mandated load out. We no longer mandate the use or installation of a sling. We are making the assumption that if a shooter has put that piece of gear on their kit and rifle, they have the knowledge and experience to answer “why?” if ever asked, not by the instructor cadre, but by anyone who may have an interest in the “What and Why.”

People have challenged us regarding our philosophy on slings and the resounding feedback from the students who have finished our programs has been that when first discussing the concept, they thought we were all wet and off base, but they applied it and put it up to the Pepsi Challenge. They saw the utility of running un-slung and have put that tool in their toolbox. So much so, we have students who are issued a rifle and sling, and risk sanctions from their agencies/departments/units for failing to install or use a sling operationally. They have found that running without a sling has made them more accurate, faster and more lethal; that fact outweighs the risk of admonishment from their administrators for failing to use a length of nylon.

This isn’t a training provider creating controversy for the sake of creating controversy. Quite the contrary; I question why it is controversial to have a shooter drop a dead gun in the battle space as to more effectively and more expediently get their secondary weapon system up and running to finish the fight after:

  1. Being in a confrontation;
  2. Being in a confrontation that meets the four pre-conditions of deadly physical force or RoE;
  3. Delivering or attempting to deliver DPF;
  4. Weapon system failing;
  5. Transitioning to a secondary weapon system;
  6. Again, delivering or attempting to deliver DPF;
  7. Secondary weapon system failing;
  8. Remediation and preparation to (re)deliver DPF.

At no point above have I discounted or otherwise ignored the utility of using and installing a sling for administrative purposes. Yes, I have a sling on my kit. Yes, I have a mounting point on my receiver end plate for my sling. I use it strictly for administrative purposes: Getting the gun to and from the fight. I think rgaper did a fine job of articulating the HOWs and WHYs we run un-slung and the various methodologies of remediation and options when things go sideways.

We don’t ask much from our students, but what we do mandate from our students is that they give 100% during the program, don’t quit and to test & challenge everything we do and instruct. That includes challenging previously taught paradigms and concepts. Looking at the number of shooters we have taught over the years, the biggest controversy is our philosophy regarding slings? Looks like a pretty good track record, to me.

Rider79 – If you know some higher ups at PFC, then you know how to reach me. I am more than happy to discuss this with you over the phone, over coffee or over a few adult beverages (I’ll buy). My cell phone is on 24x7, I welcome the opportunity to share our thoughts and to hear your own.

-Ray J
Director of Training,
Progressive F.O.R.C.E. Concepts, LLC

Ray,
I think we exchanged a couple emails about a handgun class. I’ve met Steve K. a few times and I’ve been good friends with Big Dave for awhile as well as working with his cousin and nephew.

I’ve been shooting handguns for years and that’s where all my instruction has been, so I have no class experience with the rifle. I found the sling idea strange because I’ve never heard it before from any other instructor. I respect Riverine’s opinion and he put the idea in perspective for me so I will keep an open mind to it. I am by no means an expert and I have no military combat experience so my opinion means little. Because of my work schedule weekend classes don’t really work for me and out of town classes are hard. This is why I was thinking of your 5 day handgun and carbine classes in October and November. I appreciate you posting in this thread and feel free to email me through this site.

Well, the club is open so I gotta run.