You guys can help me with a decision that frankly I have been unable to come up with an answer for.
I am a disabled police officer. Well disabled retired whatever. I put in 28 years before calling it done when my health went south. Being on a somewhat limited income I can’t buy guns just any ol time I want to. I have a Springfield Armoury Operator that I can trade for a new Rock River Ar15 with the mid length rail or a Bushmaster OCR and of course match trigger as most of the Rock Rivers have. A 6 position collapsable stock. Since I have a Rock Island Armory 45 I wouldn’t be without a 45 but it sure isn’t an Operator. Doubt I would be able to replace the Operator.
Here’s the question. If it were you would you trade the Operator for the AR? I’m also thinking that ammo is a little less expensive for the AR and when I shoot a rifle I don’t burn through ammo as fast so more time on the range to relax. I enjoy shooting both. This is a quandry I have been milling over for weeks so why not ask some fellow shooters and get an opinion from you guys. Maybe you can think of some things I haven’t;)
IMO, an AR is the one that is most likely to NOT be available in the future. I’m not singing some chicken little the-sky-is-going-to-fall stuff, but it wasn’t that long ago that the “other” AWB did a LOT of the deciding for us in terms of firearm purchases. I remember all too well.
Get a nice AR…particularly if you don’t already own one.
I’m not sure about the Rock River, I’m sure there fine Rifles. I own a Bushmaster M4 type and I love it. Good luck with whatever You buy, And thank You for the 28 Years of LE service.
I was also thinking along those same lines. Bush has already said he will sign the renewed assualt weapons ban if passed by congress. It’s happened once and probably will again. I also remember when it happened last time and how prices went through the roof and availabilty was terrible.
Thanks for the imput!
Can you afford a hundred or two every month or two?
I’d keep the operator, sell the Rock Island Armscor, and buy your AR one stage at a time. Sell the pistol, buy an upper. A month or two later, buy your lower receiver, then a parts kit and stock, and then whatever…
That way you’ll have a project that you can do yourself, build it and then enjoy your finished project. Either that or you could go with the Ameetech setup, which is nice and inexpensive. You don’t need to pay for a name to build a reliable setup.
Of course, they’re your guns, so do what you really feel like doing, but you don’t need to get a complete rifle all at once… unless you really want to.
I’ve gotten some really good imput and it’s appreciated. I think considering how hard it is to get an Operator I probably should keep it. As was mentioned I can always sell one or two of the others and get a kit. I shoot the Operator three times as much as any of the other 45’s. It’s also the one I have been carrying everyday.
Something that was irritating was having to sell some rifles last year because of medical bills. I had cancer and ended up selling two AR’s. I sold the one I built, a DPMS Lo-Pro and a Savage 10FP in 308. That hurt!!! Seems like we all have to sell guns sometimes but it’s never an easy decision.
One other thing I thought of is I can get an AK for $399 so I’ll have a rifle then start building from a kit and have an AR made with what I want on it. Patience isn’t one of my virtues but I think with a little time I could keep the Operator have an AK and build an AR within 3 to 4 months or so.
I saw one of Craigs post about some very good quality uppers for $135 and lower for about the same. I would need a gunsmith to put the barrel on. I don’t trust myself to do that. I can save some bucks by not putting on a rail system. I can use regular guards and still attach a light. I also tend to hold the front of the magwell when shooting anyway so I don’t really need a vertical grip. That will save me $200 to $250 just by leaving the rail etc off. Sound like a plan?
One other thing. The AK is a Romanian one. Are they pretty good?
So that should answer if you should keep it or not.
One other thing I thought of is I can get an AK for $399 so I’ll have a rifle then start building from a kit and have an AR made with what I want on it. Patience isn’t one of my virtues but I think with a little time I could keep the Operator have an AK and build an AR within 3 to 4 months or so. … Sound like a plan?
Yup. If you can do that and keep your primary carry pistol, you’ll probably be happier in the end. All the ‘extras’ can be added later. Rails, VFGs, optics can easily be added or changed.
One other thing. The AK is a Romanian one. Are they pretty good?
Don’t buy one sight unseen. The 5.56 and 5.45 have issues, and the newer commercial ones I’ve seen quite frankly, look like crap. At least from seeing their .22LR version and their latest Century import RPKs. I live in CA so admittedly, I haven’t seen too many, though the latest Azex arms are gorgeous and worth the $150-$200 premium over a current Romanian import, and this is from direct comparison in person. There is no comparison.
The older Romanians seem to have a nicer, acceptable fit and finish, but the new ones just seem like really sloppy builds with no attention to detail. Just check it out in person, perform a function check to make sure it’s smooth and works, and look it over conspicuously.
After all that great imput which tended toward keeping the Operator I had an addition to the deal I couldn’t pass up. The dealer had a personal Leatherwood ART scope setup for AR15’s. A very classy scope with no wear to speak of. He put a night force scope on his and didn’t need the ART scope anymore. The deal was if I throw in $100 for the scope he would make it an even trade for the Rock River. The scope runs about $400 or close to it. He offered to sell me an Aimpoint military 2 MOA red dot for it marked down from $422 to $375 if I want it and can come up with the bucks next month. He’s a friend by the way and knows about the health problems I’ve had. Honestly I think he just wanted to help me out.
This Rock River has a Yankee Hill medium length rail system(free float) with the medium gas system. It has a match Wilson Combat barrel chrome lined. It also has a two stage national match trigger that is the best I’ve ever felt. It of course has the 6 position stock. An ambi-safety is included but not installed which is no big deal to put in. He had $969 on the rifle. He had ordered it for himself and changed his mind and bought a bull barrel AR with a 24 inch barrel to hunt prarie dogs and such. It’s a custom configuration I believe since I couldn’t find it in the catalog. These also have a lifetime warranty.
I just couldn’t pass it up!!! I’ll be switching over to my S&W Gunsite version as my carry gun. It may be a dumb thing to do since as we’ve discussed Operators are hard to come by. I think I can live with it though;)
As a police officer with over 30 years of experience (full time: 27.4 years and the rest as a part time officer) and with over a dozen years of military time (19 months in combat in Viet Nam with the paratroopers of the 173D Airborne Brigade), I can tell you from my experiences that 99.99% of ALL of the shootings in which I was involved were done at very close range. I can only remember being involved in 3 shootings where the distance was over 50 yards. All the rest were under 50 yards. With the scope mounted on the AR-15 carbine it looks like you’re trying to cover all angles/distances for shooting scenarios. What is interesting is that there was a website where one of the west coast police agencies found out that barrel length was not as important in shooting accuracy, with an attached scope, as most people would have thought. The officers who ran the test found out that a 20 inch, 18 inch and a 16 inch barrel all produced close to the same accuracy and groupings. Did you put your scope on your carbine for some other reason or something? I ask because I am curious as to your reasoning because what you have may be an option for some of the people I help teach to shoot. Thanks for any information you can give me.
We have very similar backgrounds. I was one of three firearms instructors at my department. I was also on our SRU team for many years. Back in 1988 they sent me to Quantico for the FBI sniper school.
I would agree with the findings you mentioned. Especially in police work so called sniper shots are usually no more than 75 yards. There are exceptions of course but that seems to be the norm. Our rifles were 308’s. We used a remington 700 in 308 and we also had an HBAR Colt in 223 with a scope on it.
I have shot tons of both calibers at distances out to 400 yards. Most of my practice never exceeded 200 yards. My groups at 200 yards were no different with a 223 than a 308. More punch of course but accuracy was very close to the same. Even moving out to 300 to 350 yards the 223 stayed right with the 308 without making any radical changes to the scope settings. Again that’s accuracy not power. 2 inch groups at 300 yards was no problem with either one. I purchased a DPMS Lo Pro with a 16 inch Douglas barrel and it was amazingly accurate. I was using the same type Leatherwood scope that’s on this rifle. I firmly believe that this rifle would serve very well in the police role whether it be as a tactical scoped model or setup as a standard entry gun with an EoTech sight. I have an EoTech 512 I will use on this rifle also. I put the scope on when I picked it up because I wanted to see how accurate it is but at times I’ll change over to the EoTech for close in practice ( out to 100 yards but usually more like 25 to 50 yards).
I feel like that in an urban setting a 308 is a bit much. Since were talking head shots, if god forbid we have to shoot, I have complete confidence the 223 with a 16 inch barrel will do the job whether it’s an AR platform or bolt action. I keep in touch with other officers around the country that are designated snipers for the department they work for and I have seen a trend towards using the AR15 with a heavy match barrel for the tactical(sniper) role. As far as barrel length you loose about 200 fps with a 16 inch barrel. It comes out to about 2500 fps in a 16 inch. Most of the departments were using 20 and 24 inch barrels which they are getting 2900 to 3000 fps depending on load. They are setup with a free float tube etc. and a high quality scope like a nightforce if they can afford one:-) as far as scopes go I see no need for anything more powerful than a 3x9 like the Leatherwood I use. This Leatherwood uses a cam system to adjust for load and distance. You begin by using a table of ammo types Leatherwood supplies, loosen the cams and set per the reference table. The cams are locked down with the weapon zeroed at 200 yards. Looking through the scope you see reference marks for target size both in inches and meters and adjust the scope power to match target size. That puts you right on target with the proper magnification. It can also be set to manual but I have been very pleased with the automatic ranging and tracking feature.
To sum it up I would prefer an AR15 with a 20 or 24 inch barrel, the ART scope and a bullet weight in the 65 or so grains. It’s less cumbersome, has plenty of power for police use and allows for fast followup shots if needed. That and you don’t send a big ol 308 through two houses behind the target.
On a side note I love to shoot the Savage 10FP in 308 out to 600 yards. We have a range here that was recently moved out to 600 yards. It’s challenging and a lot of fun. The Accutrigger on the Savage is fantastic and easily adjusted from 1 1/2 pounds to 5 pounds of pull using a small tool supplied with the rifle. On this gun I use a scope that maxs at 24 power. I also put a Choate Ultimate Sniper stock on it. It’s heavy but then I’m on a range not running up stairs to a rooftop or carrying it all over the place.
I’m getting a bit longwinded here but I hope the info helps. Feel free to email me at philwhite777@gmail.com if you want to talk about it some more.
