On other forums I try to educate people that ask about ARs and I send them here first. Of course a slew of people jump in saying Stag is just as good as Colt, or Colt is overrated, etc. etc.
Is there a definitive article that explains the differences between top tier and hobby ARs?
Todd,
I moved this so we could get more responses. I don’t think there is a definitive source and even if there was, they will generally nitpick it to death.
All one has to do is look at all the specs and compare them. Ultimately if we compare the two it comes down to a few things.
The Colt is combat proven. Point stop.
The Colt M4/6920 is build to a standard (TDP). Stag and others are simply copying it.
Many of the failures you hear about in combat can be attributed to shitty mags, poor maintenance and lubrication. If you eliminated those issues the rate of failure would be much lower (IMO).
If you look at Stags site they are using 4140 steel, non tested BCG’s, etc… unless you get their plus package. Which means the ones they claim are “MILSPEC” are in fact not. I have also seen first hand issues with the chambers being out of spec. They don’t even use an H buffer unless you upgrade.
There USED to be, “THE CHART” - which spelled out the ‘ingredients’ of various AR’s by manufacturer, so you knew what you were getting. It’s nominally technical, and the eyes of your typical FUDD glaze over when they see it.
Because my life has enough headaches as it is, I generally avoid discussing AR’s on other boards. I just point 'em here, and tell 'em to, “READ.”
Thanks.
That’s basically what I tell them, but then I get nit picked.
I try to avoid but fail, I have this sick need to educate people.
I find pointing out known issues works well about 80-90% of the time. It grabs their attention, at which point, i then move to comparing specs and differences.
I think one of the problems you run into with “hobby level” ARs versus “top tier” ARs is the definition of “hard use.”
Is Stag just as good as a Colt for going out and blasting Mountain Dew bottles and dirt clods a couple of times a year, probably never seeing any more than a couple of thousand rounds at most down the barrel in the lifetime?
I would say yes, for that specific application a Stag is “just as good as” a Colt. Depending on price point, maybe even a better deal.
On the flip side, is a Windham carbine going to be my first choice for a go-to rifle if TSHTF, zombie apocalypse, combat or end of the world scenario that I bet my life on to run with little to no problems?
Not at all.
In some regards, and for I would say the majority of the AR owners out there, a Stag, DPMS, Windham, etc will end up doing them fine for the amount of rounds they will put down the barrel in their lifetime. But for those that are looking at a hard use weapon that is reliable out of the box with high round counts, then not necessarily. But this is where many will say “I have shot thousands of rounds through my DPMS without a flaw!” But…not all the DPMS are going to run great and there is a more likely chance of getting a lemon from the factory than say a BCM or a Noveske.
Using a car relation, which I’m not fond of, but have nothing else to compare it to, some cars are built and will be able to run for a million miles. Not sure how, but that particular Ford Ranger just keeps running. You can change out the oil twice in 300,000 miles and do little more than add washer fluid and it still runs somehow. Maybe it was made on a Tuesday and all the factory workers were in tune and the steel and alloys were the right mix for it to perform at peak levels. Maybe someone didn’t cut corners. It just happens sometimes. Does that mean all Ford Rangers will run for a million miles? No, but there are some that just were put together the right way and run with few problems throughout their lifetime.
Liken that to a Bushmaster that folks claim to have shot twenty thousand rounds through. Sure, they probably have. Maybe that rifle was made on the Tuesday and the barrel steel was the perfect mix, the bolt was one of the batch that got the MPI and everything was utterly perfect as it left the factory floor. Chances are you cannot break it. So it runs perfectly while the one that followed it on the assembly line fails within a thousand rounds.
Chance is the name of the game when building hobby grade ARs.
The major difference in top tier ARs is the fact there few things left to chance. Full testing and the proper materials used in the construction according to the TDP in Colt’s case or as close as they can get in the other top tier AR manufacturers. You aren’t going to get that with lower level ARs that cut corners and leave things to chance. Batch testing done on bolts and barrels are leaving a lot of things to chance. They test one out of a hundred (arbitrary number as I honestly have no clue what the actual number is) and the number ten through eighty-eight have cracks in the lugs. But the batch testing doesn’t pick up on that. And chances are owners are never going to shoot that rifle to failure anyway so it’s a moot point, but they will point to the lack of failure as being “equal.”
So when it comes down to choosing a “hobby grade” AR versus a “top tier” AR, I’d rather leave as little to chance as possible. Is a Stag just as good as a Colt? Sometimes. Does it leave a lot to chance in potential failure points? Absolutely.
May not be the exact info you are looking for, but just the way I see it.
There are some examples of Brand X and Brand Y that have survived really high round counts, so people naturally use those examples to promote their point of view. You can point them toward an article for reference and they will debate the conclusions of any tests completed during comparison of the different AR companies and what they market.
Unless they have seen their own rifle take a dump during a one week course, they are going to have their minds made up already. If someone already has their mind made up, they are most likely looking for a debate and not advice.
I know most people are just trying to justify their hobby gun purchase or they would already be members of this forum. Like I said I just have this sick need to educate.
I am a member on a few different forums and i’ve noticed on “my rifle is malfunctioning” type threads that they have usually cobbled together a rifle that is made from well…junk or out of spec parts. they have never heard of the TDP and as noted previously, they think 20-100 rounds of flawless function makes their rifle a top tier rifle. If you mention colt, dd, noveske or BCM, you’ll always get flamed. they always think that a rifle that they cobbled together using the cheapest parts will always trump a top tier or brand name AR, which in my experience at the range and in classes is not the case. i always get called a BCM fan boy, and they always tell me to go back to m4carbine…
honestly, i learn more on this site than any other. i used to try and steer them this way, but i figure why have them muck up this site.
I have a hobby rifle, forged upper & lower, FN 4150 chf barrel, Geissele SS-E, LaRue Mounted Leupold, Quality BUIS rear, F front site, all the staking done right, BCM Mod 4 handle, machining done to perfection. Shoots better then any of my other rifles. It’s my only AR. Roll-mark not important. I also have a M1A, M1 Garand, more then a few Winchesters, S&W’s, .45’s, and so on. My carbine is shot more then the others by far. I’m 100% confident in the AR as my first goto weapon. For me and my uses, I have the best AR I can buy.
A few things that come to mind on why people might not buy in to the advice are claims from the past concerning Colt stuff.
Used to be common to claim Colt magazines were better than other USGI contract mags including Universal, Colt promoters used to ridicule anyone desiring standardized parts when Colt had front screws instead of front take down pins and so on, it was a bit hard to buy performance claims when the same people making them were peddling 20-30 year old SP1’s that had not had a round fired through them since leaving the factory and there were quite a few of those floating around, and during that time there was a fairly large price difference to get a Colt with proprietary parts versus something else with readily available parts. There are also plenty of people who view the proprietary parts in the same light as they did S&W entering in to the agreement with the feds & Bill Ruger showing his true colors testifying in front of congress and while the folks running those shows are no longer around, many people still view those companies negatively.
Now all of that has changed for the better, but keep in mind there are still some people around that can recall that era quite well.
Don’t think the one article you seek exists.
If you must have it…
I would take the time to do what most researchers do…
that is, put together information from a collection of reliable sources and articles.
This is the hard part, differentiating between opinions, wisdow,and facts.
Then assemble your own “fact sheet” to have a one point source for trying to work with un-informed and biased AR owners or prospective owners. (Obviously ref. the sources.) The quality of your sources will at least prove to you that this information is accurate and true to the best of your ability.
Our “social media” crazed society places too much value on everyones opinion or statements on twitter or facebook as being important and/or factual.
If people don’t listen to wisdom, logic, experience, ect., then at some point, we should stop wasting our time.
The people I’ve tried to educate don’t know the history of anything. LOL
Does anyone have the yellow-hat spread sheet? That was almost enough for most facts based people.
Unfortunately very true. Also, ‘What does the reality star, that became famous for her sex video, think?’
The chart is not being maintained but there are some good resources on his page.
http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/charts
Old link to the chart:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
.
Honestly in my experience an article would not help. On most other forums I have been on a lot of people when they ask about ARs and what to look for and what is good are only looking for people to stroke their ego because they have already bought a brand that they assume is good. That or they think all are the same, lower end are still good enough, or any number of other things. The usual responses end up being one line answer that are worthless, guys going AKs are best, or non answers. If you come and as I have and do a real break down either the idiots bitch because its a page and a half long, ou use words that require a dictionary, and they sure as hell don’t know what a TDP is but won’t look it up because that is so un-cool. Basically if they don’t want to know they won’t learn and continue to fail so I’ve given up even bothering answering or other forums since the same questions pop up twice a week and I just don’t have the time to try to educate people.
A couple years ago when PSA started making their own rifles I had briefly looked at one of their uppers and posted on another forum to see if anyone had one. I asked pointedly if anyone had one with which they had run an appreciable amount of rounds through and what kinds of performance they had gotten. I got several claiming that the uppers were great and that they had no issues with them. After asking repeatedly what their round counts were all who had responded with the uppers being so great, 100%, ect, ect replied that they had between 9-50 rounds through their uppers. They promptly got pissed when I replied that their data was useless and asked if anyone had one with 500 or more rounds through their uppers. Never did buy a damn PSA upper, of course at this point I am likely not going to buy an upper below BCM on the quality scale of things.
Thanks, I’m hoping someone saved the chart is all.
The guy I was trying to educate virtually ignored everything I told him. I really have to stop with these **** nuts.
I have become a jaded jerk on the topic. I admit it. I respect those willing to make the effort, but I spend my professional time already trying to educate people on a topic of endless of confusion.
“What AR should I get?”
“Stick to these brands and you should be GTG”
“Why?”
“Because people who know a sh%$ load more about the topic than you or I will ever know say so”
I know, not helpful. But, know your lane and be good at that, find people who know what they are talking about, and listen to them to save yourself years of wasted time and$$$.
That’s my approach. When I first came to M4C I had a clunky BM that served me OK, but I read up, asked Qs, did some research, etc, and “took yes for an answer” and got what I knew was generally approved by those who research such things for a living.
Some men you just can’t reach.
I was known to talk to anyone and everyone about this subject. I am very select about whom I try to educate now. I always take time out for the guys that say “remember you’re using weapons made by the lowest bidder”.
It’s like trying to argue quality anything…tools, tents, knives, boots, bikes, beer. Some guys just don’t want to take the time to research and educate themselves. Its all about whatever is cheap.