Some big and not so big (NYPD, DC, Philadelphia, NJ State Police are the big ones that come to mind) departments have stuck with the 9mm.
Are the line troops satisfied? Do the unions clamor for caliber upgrades?
A general circulation gun magazine published a series of articles on the elite units of foreign countries. I think almost all used a 9mm pistol. I would assume elite units could push for any sidearm they want. What do they know that we don’t?
Since when have the NYPD or Kalifornia Highway Patrol been able to shoot as well as any military unit? I do recall the CHP getting into a gunfight with an AK-wielding perp in a suburban at PBR, firing over 87 rounds, and not hitting the suburban once.
SF worldwide know it’s about shot placement, not caliber. “Fast is slow; slow is fast. Front sight focus, and pull the trigger with purpose.”
NYPD: “Blow your wad, then run for cover.” (apologies to any LEOs in here)
I think if you do some research you will see that across the board police depts. have pretty bad qualification scores. For most of the military branches the pistol isn’t something that gets alot of attention. Obviously with the Spec Ops types units it is viewed differently because they actually train with and use their handguns and do transition drills.
You also be surprised to know that (2) very famous Spec Ops units stll use 9mm pistols most of the time.
Special Air Service and…?
I’m sure some unions have, but generally that’s not something unions would get in too much of a tizzy over unless the department was dropping from a larger caliber. Secondly, the NYPD makes a lot of decisions that have zero to do with officer safety or officer preference, so you really shouldn’t look at them as a model for decision making…they only recently approved the use of hollowpoints.
The NJSP issued the H&K P7M8 and then later the P7M13 while I lived in New Jersey some years ago. The troopers I knew liked the weapon and at least one of them was saved because he lost control of the weapon during a fight with multiple bad guys and the ringleader couldn’t figure out how to make the thing go boom. I don’t recall hearing a lot of complaints about the performance of the 9mm from the NJSP troopers I knew.
The 9mm is issued or authorized by a lot of agencies in the country because it’s an effective round when loaded properly. 9mm performance today is the best it has ever been with several loads that offer excellent performance offered by a number of manufacturers. It’s also the cheapest centerfire handgun chambering to feed.
Some agencies end up with a 9mm gun by accident. The Indiana State Police tried to buy .40 caliber Glocks some years ago and encountered so many problems with the weapons that they made Glock take back all the .40 guns and issued Glock 17s instead. You also need to realize that a number of agencies issue the .357 sig which offers basically the same performance of good 9mm ammo…it’s just a more expensive way to get to the same destination. 
While 9mm performance isn’t identical to the performance of the .40 or .45, it’s still darn good by any measure. To be honest, most departments would be better off with 9mm weapons and more money for training than by issuing the .40 or .45…but that’s another matter.
A general circulation gun magazine published a series of articles on the elite units of foreign countries. I think almost all used a 9mm pistol. I would assume elite units could push for any sidearm they want. What do they know that we don’t?
9mm is the world’s standard pistol. You have to understand that to them that’s a big gun. If you look at police and military forces around the globe who now have the 9mm and what they USED to have before adopting 9mm handguns as sidearms, you’ll notice that for the majority of them the 9mm is a major upgrade. Take the German police. I have an ex-German police gun…a Walther PP in .32 ACP. The weapon was carried and shows evidence of life in a holster…but hardly any sign of being shot. They now issue 9mm H&K handguns. The Walther PP was a very popular police weapon in a number of countries.
The obsession with bigger calibers in handguns is mainly an American phenomenon.
What do they “know” that we don’t? Nothing. US law enforcement taken as a whole more likely has more gunfights than the whole of European LE put together. Heck, some cities in the US may have more LE shootings than the whole of European LE put together. LE in other nations isn’t the same as LE here. The culture is different, the politics are different, and the laws are different.
So we haven’t had our quota of caliber war threads for January or is it for 2009?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
M_P
Special Forces, i.e. Green Berets use Beretta’s. What troops don’t like is the 9mm ball round.
Despite what the gun rags will print CAG and Navy SEALs still use the 9mm pistol in many cases. So do Air Force Spec Ops personnel and a host of others. I have a friend in CAG who carries a modified G19 and I know more than a few SEALs that used Sig P226’s.
Mabye I am missing something, but I do not feel like “under powered” with a 9mm. The simple fact remains that a pistol caliber is still a pistol caliber and what really matters is shot placement. Seeing how the 9mm is the softest shooting, has higher capacity and the fact that it is more affordable to shoot (meaning more practice) makes it the best choice IMHO.
For the record I am also a 1911/45 fan, but see the merits in the 9mm.
C4
If an officer shoots a BG with a 9mm and the BG fails to disintegrate, the caliber gets blamed. If an officer shoots a BG with a .40 and the BG fails to disintegrate, the choice of bullet gets blamed. If an officer shoots a BG with a .45 and the BG fails to disintegrate, the officer gets blamed. (everyone shot by a 357 actually does disintegrate)
As JW777 pointed out, the perceived need for >9mm ammunition is a wholly American phenomenon. It’s directly related to the fact that our country’s standard issue military sidearm for 75 years was a .45 Auto.
I have watched plenty of departments switch from 9mm to .40, 357, or .45 with varying degrees of difficulty and success. Each department had its own reason, many of them based on very little knowledge and a great deal of testosterone.
But the #1 reason for the switch from 9mm to .40 in this country is … GLOCK. Quickly followed by other gun companies, Glock pioneered the art of telling 9mm wielding departments that they needed to upgrade to more powerful guns. This gave them a way into departments issuing competitors’ guns, and gave them a reason to sell a second set of guns to existing Glock departments. The idea worked so well that every other pistol manufacturer jumped on board and soon all of the gun company reps were telling FIs and Chiefs just how weak and dangerous the 9mm was.
So while the Miami shootout may be the Genesis of the .40, Glock played the role of disciple proselytizing to the masses.
Those Glock muthers are sneaky smart! :eek:
…and offering sidearms at a low, low price thanks to a nice profit margin didn’t hurt that plan any either…
Actually, Glock in particular did one better. With the '94 AWB, the value of used pre-ban G17 and G19 magazines in LE inventories was huge. Glock traded out brand-new G22/G23 models in exchange for a department’s used G17/G19’s at no cost whatsoever to the department. Glock refurbished the used LE guns (a practice copied by other companies today) and sold them at a premium because they came with a legal standard-capacity magazine during the 10rd limit days.
It seems obvious today, but back then it was absolutely brilliant.
force recon issues m9 when the 1911 meusoc pistols are deadlined.
Exactly. This was indicated in the detailed poll that was taken a couple years ago, where they surveyed 2600 troops across all branches, and asked about the main calibers and weapons being issued. Regarding the 9mm, there’s nothing in the poll that indicates an overwhelming majority is against the 9mm specifically, but 48% indicated some level of dissatisfaction with the ammo, and another 20% indicated distrust in the M9 itself (reliability issues). While a few respondents specifically requested a larger caliber, it appears that most were simply requesting ammo with better effectiveness.
The study states:
"M9 and M4 users requested armor-piercing and hollow-point am-
munition. The use of hollow point bullets is illegal for military use.
However, these requests should be interpreted as a desire for in-
creased stopping power/lethality. "
Here’s a link to the article and the poll:
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003515.html
If all of our troops were using quality HP loads such as Federal Tactical Bonded 135gr, or Speer Gold Dot 124 +P, or Federal HST +P 124gr or 147gr, etc., it’s likely the majority would have no problem with 9mm.
Brit 21/22/23 SAS and SBS as well as (AFAIK) the newer SRR & SFSG use 9mm Sig P226 std issue which replaced the BHP. Smaller platforms are carried for covert uses like the P7.
They all train to use double taps so 2 rds would be hitting almost simultaneously. As with your own 1SFODD/DevGru and other elite units the degree of pistol training is such that shooting is instinctive and incredibly effective. The difference between their pistol skills and the average infantryman’s is night and day.
Hence shot placement under duress is infinitely better which is more important than ballistics. Before anyone jumps my ass I know that our very own LAV was a D sgt for years and I believe that the D boys now use Ed Brown 1911’s so there is a reason for that, but my point is that 9mm with well placed shots is more than adequate.
As civilians we can use non ball ammo which makes the 9mm less inferior to the 45acp than if comparing nato 9mm vs nato 45acp.
The FBI article was interesting but I found it didn’t really make a conclusion. The guy presented lots of info but seemed to basically take 13 pages to say that shot placement is more important than anything else but under duress in life and death struggles could not be relied upon, so ballistics play a role where penetration is the most vital factor and that temporary wound cavity, fragmentation, kinetic energy and ‘knock down’ power were basically irrelevent and that at 9mm with the advances in modern ammo is more than adequate but all that notwithstanding, a bigger hole is always better…
So back to square one… 9mm is fine but bigger seems to have an advantage.:rolleyes: Thanks for laying the debate to rest…
Oh well…what the heck do I know…
I’m still on the fence. USP45 or Sig P226 in 9mm.
No.
I’m still on the fence. USP45 or Sig P226 in 9mm.
If I had to choose between those two, I’d either get a HK45 or M&P45 in .45 or a G19, M&P9, or P30 in 9mm. 
CAG are still fielding the Glock 22 amongst others I think…
Dude, just let it go. You are out of your lane on what they are using.
M_P
My dept. had P226 when the 94 AWB came into effect. A well known Police Firearms supplier in the area traded our used p226 and all hi cap mags even for new p220’s. We had some reliablity issues and after a couple years went with G22’s. Then in 99 switched to railed G22’s. This year we went with G17’s. The G22’s had the reliabilty issues with lights mounted. Not all, but enough to cause concern. Today’s 9mm ammo is not the ammo of 1988. Our dept. qual scores have improved and we can afford to shoot much more for the same budget. Ammo that is as effective as a larger caliber, more reliable and durable system, more ammo on board and less expensive. We did not find a down side.