I spent this past Saturday at Frank Garcia’s place in Frostproof taking a private one-day class with another student under one of Frank’s instructors, Roy Tyler. This student and I had trained with Roy prior so he knew us and knew what our level of experience and ability was.
The whole day really focused on engaging multiple targets.
One of the drills we did was engaging an array of 8 pepper poppers at various distances from 25 all the way out to 100 yards, all from standing. At first I thought this was totally stupid, until I thought about it and applied the concepts to other drills that we ran. We came back to this same drill several times throughout the day, at various distances.
First let’s address how “practical” it may have been. At first glimpse the idea of shooting an 8" target at 50 yards from standing, let alone multiples of same, may not appear to have much application for a non-LE civilian shooter. Even less so at 75 and 100 yards. However, once I started thinking about things another way I found it to be pretty applicable. The mindset change I had was to go from thinking of them as 8" targets at 50 yards to thinking of them as 2" targets at 12 yards. I have asked shooters to make these shots several times at our practice nights, and at 12 yards you have holdover to deal with as well.
This was about engaging multiple targets quickly. We were doing one shot per target but clearly you could increase the number of rounds. I found the drill to be very beneficial when we moved back to other bays and engaged at CQB distances with multiple rounds.
Just an example of breaking a training routine, getting away from the dogma you may have bought into, and trying something new with an open mind.
My story:
For target to target transitions I shot the 2x2x2 exclusively. I just worked this into my system non stop thinking that I would be good to go.
I got the chance to shoot with a guy who really knows whats up. We set up some drills that were VERY different from the 2x2x2. When it was my turn to go, I litterally shot the drill exactly like I had always done the 2x2x2.
After I went short bus I have moved to constantly changing up the way I do things. I work drills to improve a specific skill, but I am changing up little aspects of the drills or the drill completely to avoid falling into a rut.
Sorry about that, carbine. I have shot handgun at ranges like this before but would imagine that it might involve some holdover depending on the gun/ammo/shooter.
A few years ago we had a stage (rifle only stage) at a large 3gun match which had five 8" steel plates that had to be shot standing with no support from 200yds. Needless to say it separated the shooters from the hosers quite quickly. Some just gave up and took the penalties. Some timed out (180sec limit).
5 standing unsupported
5 standing supported
5 kneeling supported
5 sitting unsupported
5 urban/roll-over prone through a mouse port
I couldn’t believe how many people were bitching about the stage.
I also thought you were talking about handguns. However as you mentioned, the concept of impressing upon a shooter that it is just a smaller target up close is a good thing IMO and I use it often. A lot of people just get too wrapped up in the mental block when distance is added to the equation. Yes, there are outside factors (mother nature etc) that start playing more into the equation as distances and conditions vary and more disciplined applications of fundamentals key heavily, but this is a good way to remove the mental stigma that many shooters have when distances increase.
As an example, for pistol quals, our PD went to a qual course that does not extend beyond 15 yards. Even my division, which had a tougher overall qual, also did not go beyond 15 yards for pistol and training was mostly confined within these CQB distances. It was obvious that even higher skilled shooters often questioned their own abilities without adding in varied distance training out to say 50 yards. While distances / circumstances of when to transition to your secondary (pistol) is left the individual, there was often lack of confidence in our guys as they hadn’t been testing their own limits through training.
As I started having more input in the training and when I re-wrote our quals I opened up to include more distance. I stayed within 25 yards for a qual but training often extends out to the 40 and 50 yard ranges for pistol. Combining this with taking things from zero has driven our shooters to become much better.
I look at distance in a progressive training course as a way to test or show a shooter his/her own abilities and where their threshold of skills lie as the proper application of fundamentals need more strict adherence and lack of precise application amplifies the issues especially as distance increases. In our 3 day basic pistol course we start out very basic, getting the one hole concept down pat, to ingrain and show fundamentals and proficiency. By the beginning of the 3rd day we do a challenge type of drill shooting a popper at 50 yards standing and 100 yards any position. This really stresses the importance of the application of the fundamentals that they have been taught and results are very very good. It is a great confidence builder amongst the shooters and effectively helps a shooter define their own effective engagement distances with a pistol (not saying 50 or 100 yards).
As we start going back to closer CQB distances, the confidence instilled in the shooter with their own skill level and necessity for proper application of fundamentals generally takes them to a new level with confidence and ability to apply their own skills. The proficiency at close range dramatically increases, which in turn increases speed and accuracy of follow ups and everything else in between and everything that builds from there. A great foundation to that also allows an individual shooter to more precisely and effectively test and adapt their own unique style into what we teach, often propelling them even further.
So in essence I agree with you completely on this topic and any shooter can benefit from differing types of distance engagement drills whether LE, military or Civilian. While it may not be practical to be engaging targets with a pistol at 100 yards standing, this type of training benefits many other aspects of shooting and when a correct application of training instruction is given to a student, great results can be gained in many applications overall.
edit - I should add that this post probably opened up another long discussion as I seem to have that effect on people.
Surf I think that the confidence gained by making hits at distance and then moving back in is a big part of the value of this drill.
One thing that we did that was a little counter to my prior training was taking the shot when your sights were on the target, regardless of overall “feel”. This meant that we were often going faster than we could make every single hit at 50. My training partner and I took opposite approaches from there wherein I slowed down a half-tick to try to get more hits while he kept up the speed and tried to work at a set pace.
We were also instructed to take one shot at each target and move on. In prior training I have often focused on one target until I get the “ding” and only then move on, but Roy (and Frank in my previous class) had us taking one shot per target, hit or miss. The idea from what I can tell is to get the rhythm down and focus on the drill as a whole instead of getting tunnel vision on a single target.
I am very much enjoying training with Frank and Roy, and look forward to training with other instructors at Universal. Their methodology is pretty different than what I’m used to and I’m finding the turmoil to be beneficial. It’s not about one being better than another, it’s just that sometimes you need a shake up to brake out of a rut.
