I was working up some new loads using the 70 grain Barnes and came up with a issue.
Using RL15 once I got past 24.0 grains it started to compress the loads. The reloading data from Barnes, and other data sources they aren’t using the good ole thick LC 5.56 brass. I understand the difference with the thicker brass means less room. I wasn’t getting over pressure signs but stopped when I couldn’t stand the crunch sounds :cray:.
All the step up’s from 23.3 grains to 24 grains stabolized the bullet (no key holes) I was hoping my 16 inch 1:8 Wylde would pull it off and it did. But I’m thinking I need more power to keep the round supersonic out to 300 yards (if possible)?
I didn’t chrono I was mainly trying for grouping and seeing if it key holed. I can’t get to the hottest fps which was for RL15 without compressing the load in my LC brass.
What I’m asking from you experts do you think I should switch brass to a thinner make, so I can squeeze in more powder? Or is there a faster powder, not tested in the reloading guides. Thanks much-WW
I can’t ever get the Barnes 5.56 info to come up… I get a bubble that say’s “Data Damaged” pulling PDF’s from there.
I’m not a expert by any means, I just thought it’s a reasonable goal to try keeping your bullet flying supersonic to reasonable distances (it aint a lazer right? he-he). The physics might not even be possible for 200 to 300 yards. I dont’ have any ballistic apps…I’m old school. I got a chrony, powder, and targets.
I got TAC, RL15, and BL-C(2) to play with for now. I started with the RL-15 as it was published as most accurate and had the most fps. Thanks, for the reply its helping I promise.-WW
ps. I’m cooking up a mule deer “fall down” round, I got my coyote “be good” rounds dialed in and use TAC for that, just not with Barnes yet. I used my “coyote be good” last year on a buck, and if it wasn’t for good placement could’a been a bad day for me. He dropped right there but I want a better round. Big game deserve it. I use Barnes in my
.270 with confidence, for elk or deer, I’m just having fun using my AR for more than paper.
LC brass is not thick; it’s some of the lighter brass on the market.
Is accuracy bad now and you’re trying to bump velocity to see where that leads you? If you can’t fit any more in, try a long drop tube or vibrate the case some to see if you gain and compacting of the powder.
As you reported, .223 is on the edge for deer. I’d go with accuracy and keep focussing on shot placement, and assume terminal perfromance will be there. Just don’t thing the .223 is a 400 yd deer cartidge.
For hunting, accuracy is in the bubble with my loads so far, I just get edgy on the compacting, I’ve only been doing my own loads for about 3 years so I’m still learning. I thought the NATO LC was thicker with less room for the belt fed stuff. But I’m listening. What do you think good quality brass is?
I like to consider myself a pretty good hunter been at it for a couple a decades now and haven’t shot past 150 yards (elk/deer/lopes) ever. 300 yards would be extreme for me. I’m not a long range guy, I like sneaky. My shortest elk was 2 yards(ya it was a shoot it off’a me deal) , my longest deer was 130 yards. I’d never ever shoot a elk (even if legal) with .223/5.56. ever. But I think I can responsibly drop a mulie with one, and have. My first with a .223, was last season with a 77grain Nosler BTHP in the neck. Dropped DRT. But after the skinning I realized it was a bad move. Had I shot it anywhere else I would have been a jack@ass. Thus I’m trying to do the right thing. Honor, respect…And hey thanks this is the best AR site, and the best info on the net and all the info you all are giving is true to heart for this kid, thanks.-WW
If you want more velocity think about trying a 62 tsx or ttsx you gain more speed and only loose 8 grains bullet weight.
For Barnes 556 data with the 70 they only list tac and h335.
H335 min 21.0 max 23.0
Tac min 24.0 max 26.0
That is for the 70 grain tsx use at your own risk and always remember to work up. You should not have to compress as h355 is 80 percent load density and tac is 92 percent load density.
That’s the same load I’m running 23.5 g of r15 LC brass 70g tsx and a rem small rifle primer. It is my best load and groups are under 2 at 300m. Shot from a 16" mrp
I shot Silver Bear 62 HPBT to compare and chrono’d 2960 fps vs 3050 listed.
Since my first TTSX loads were about 180 fps off of the the book max vs the 90-100 fps I expected using the 16" barrel I will use the 5.56 data and finish laddering from 25.9 to 27.2 and chrono.
Only concern I have is that at 25.1 gr I was at 2806 vs. 2783 at 25.2 min in the book. Actually higher than the book’s 20" bbl with my 16". Perhaps it was because I loaded 2.26 vs. 2.24 coal. Maybe more pressure. Oh well we shall see.
I can assure you that a 70gr bullet loaded to 2,800fps wont lose enough speed to be subsonic(1,050fps) by 300yds. 800-900yds maybe…but at 300yds its still cooking along pretty damn fast.
The silver bear warm up/fouling rounds 62 gr 2880 fps (same batch, different box, slower than before.)
Barnes 5.56 listed max 27.2 gr RL-15 at 3019 fps with the 20", so my target velocity in the 16" is 92 fps less, so 2935 fps.
All rounds today showed no real pressure signs, the 27.1 primer same as the 25.9. However ALL had primers a hair flatter then the previous round. Not enough to be of concern though. I think I will load them at 26.7 gr for my daughters hunt. Slightly over target velocity, but not too much.
For the 70 gr load estimated at 2774fps on my 16", ballistics at 500 yds, the windage advantage of the 70 gr bullet of 0.4 inch, and energy of 26 ft/lbs is not worth the wear and tear on the chickens arse to switch now. BTW the drop is 4 inch better at 500 yds with the 62, and from 100-300 yds they are so close not worth even discussing according to JBM Ballistics.
If you started with the 70 gr stick with them, if the 62 same. Just my dos pesos.
As per the orginal Ops concern, a bit of powder crunching on these rounds, no issues.
Thanks for the additional testing folks keep it coming!!!
I don’t think I mentioned my poor boy’s testing method. It’s pretty basic and fairly fast. I run a simple, three round test per each powder increase., I normally use five tests per powder, then pull the best group and tweek around that. Once I get a fair group I get out the chrono, then I start trying for better power without accuracy loss. It’s cheap and not the indepth testing you all use but it suits me. I use less bullets, and less powder this way. I know it leaves a lot of gaps, however…I do mention I tweek more around the best groups. I’m not a bullseye, long range shooter, I just want hard hitting, decent groups (anything inside a 6inch target out of 200 yards).
For my rifle with the 70gr Barnes and the RL15 once I got past the 23.8 grains of powder my patterns started opening up more and more. With the RL15 I ended my test batches with 24.3 grains and had the worst grouping. In the future I plan on some slight COAL changes and maybe some slight over max to see if something good happens.
As of right now I’m working up some 70gr Barnes with TAC. So far with less powder my groups seem much better than with the RL15. Can’t explain it, could be a fluke but my rifle is liking the TAC better so far. I really like the TAC for my varmit rounds so its nice its covering both bases so far.
I got talked into some of that CFE223 by the local gun store expert…uggh. After getting home and reading up on it…uggh. Pretty slow stuff, so you need more to get the rounds up to the speed I want. But I got it so its on the burner for some of my good-ole boy testing. On a side note, I’m also a sucker for the flashy crap the stores put on the ends of the isles, I hate stores, I come home with more crap I don’t need…anyway thanks folks…-WW
ps. Thanks for the info on the powder drop funnel, and the “crunching” I’m not so spooked now. And maybe some 62gn TSX testing for the future could be the magic I’m looking for. As well as H335.
The book show XMR 2015 at the most accurate load for the 70gr .223 load, min 19 max 21 at 2833 fps, 86% density.
Then BLC2 22.5min-24.5max, then TAC 21.5-23.5
For the 5.56 on the web 70 gr, most accurate is H335 21-23 @2734 max, 80%,then TAC 24-26 @2866 92%
All with 20" 1:7, COAL 2.25.
I do mine different, I find my target velocity first, then play around for accuracy. At my range, I can only chrono to the 25 yd target, the tripod not high enough for the further ones out. Now I will load 5 rounds each ±.5 grains from there for accuracy, then I may dabble with COAL if I cannot find a sweet spot.
My rifle is about 1-1.75 MOA with the Silver Bear 62 gr on most days. I got the 69 SMK, and 75 Hornady HPBT 1 or better, if I am having a good day. If I can get the 62 TTSx 1.5 or better, good enough for the hunt, though I will try for better.
Barnes usually like a jump to the lands for accuracy. I found .06 from the lands good starting point.
On my hunting rifles, I measure the bore so I know exactly har far to the lands are in the barrel.
For the AR, we are stuck at mag length, which is tighter than any of my hunting rifle mags by far. All of my hunting rifles have deep throats, but I have plenty of mag room to compensate. All of my hunting loads are over book COAL, and over book powder max by 1-3 grns (due to the increased volume from loading the bullets out so much).
I have never bothered measuring the bore on my ARs, because mag length limits me to 2.26 to allow enough space where I am comfortable with the clearance for polymer tips. 5.56 NATO bores have notorious deep throats. So I always start at 2.26 for my AR loads, and shorten if need be. All of my COAL sweet spots have been 2.23-2.26, except for the AMAX 75, which requires a 2.39 COAL (given the .06 “rule of thumb” for barnes, IF the 2.39 COAL fits, then other similar ogive bullets could be loaded to 2.33 for the jump, but you can only single feed them into the rifle.)
I have loaded 55gr VMAX, 75 gr AMAX, 62 gr TTSX, 69 gr SMK, and 75 gr Hornady HPBT.
I plan to find a 60-80gr soft point for a good store of SHTF cheap all purpose rounds.
WW, what did you not like about the round you shot the deer in the neck with?
I’m not a neck shooter, that was my first. The round was total fragmentation. Went in slick but blew itself into a billion pieces, and the exit wound was too graphic for TV. Basically ruined any scrap of neck meat. The fragments didn’t disrupt the spine that I could tell. I think it was more shock and blood loss, and a shredded windpipe that dumped him but I don’t believe a CNS disruption. In my non profession opinion, it dumped all the energy instantly without good enough penetration. Had I needed the bullet driven deep (which I prefer) or through bone I just can’t confidently say it would have. 77 gn Noslers Custom Comps (the round I used) aren’t a hunting round anyway, I just had the shot and took it.
From reading on the net the Bergers seem to be “the new thing” for long range, just enough penetration, and gross fragmentation to dump thin skinned big game. So I’m assuming the Noslers and Bergers basically do the same thing I observed. I just don’t care for my meat to be saturated with shrapnel.
My shot, is a shoulder, clip the lungs and heart, and blow out off shoulder. Or heart, lungs, off shoulder. This is why I prefer the Barnes. I’ve used them in my .270 for years with outstanding effect from everything from bear to elk. So I figure I’d work up some for my AR.-WW
ps. Well thanks for the chart Submariner, I guess I was completely wrong about the LC brass, I leaned something new.
112 yards give or take according to the laser. The exit resulted in fan shaped bloody gore that threw stuff about six yards past the buck…impressive but…as I mentioned I need more.-WW
77gr Nos CC HPBT
22.7grains of TAC
Winchester small rifle primers
COAL 2.26
