5.7mm... Again...

General Firearms Terminal Ballistic Information
1

I’ve been absent from these boards for some time due to some significant upheaval in my real life, but I seem to have weathered the storms and am resuming my avocation in the terminal ballistics/effects arena.

As it happens, I made the mistake of posting comments regarding the poor terminal ballistics and tactical utility of the 5.7mm FN round on another internet forum (NOT a particularly educated forum from a tactical perspective, but good from a hunting one) and have been blindsided by a number of claims that the 5.7 is the next new NATO round and that it’s sweeping through North America as well. I have to confess I haven’t looked into the 5.7mm for years, so I’m in no position to comment further until I get educated.

DocGKR and other forum members… are you aware of any ordnance testing in the past few years that is favorable or otherwise to this round, either as a pistol or SMG round, and if so, could you point me to the reports?

Further, it has been alleged that some US agencies, including the Secret Service, have adopted this round for general use. Is this in fact true? This list of 5.7-friendly foreign agencies that have adopted this round was provided:

Belgium- Air Force, Army, Special Forces, National Police SWAT, and Liège Municipal Police
Canada- Montreal SWAT
Cyprus- National Guard Special Forces
France- DSGE Intelligence Agency (same function as US CIA)
Greece- EKAM Unit of the National Police
Guatamala- DIGICI Intelligence Agency
India- Special Protection Group (similar to US Secret Service)
Indonesia- Special Diver Group of Indonesian Navy; Special Forces of Indonesian Army
Italy- 9th Parachute Assault Regiment
Libya- the Libyan Armed Forces
Mexico- Mexican Army; Presidential Guard; Special Forces of the Mexican Navy
Nepal- all armed forces
Peru- GRUFE (special forces) of the Armed Forces of Peru
Poland- GROM (Polish Special Forces)
Saudi Arabia- all armed forces
Singapore- Singapore Armed Forces Commando Unit
Spain- Spanish Armed Forces; Madrid Municipal Police
Surinam- Security Forces
Thailand- Royal Thai Army
United States- Secret Service

Any knowledgeable comments would be most appreciated.

DrJSW

2

We all know how devastating NATO 9mm ball terminal performance is… Do they have 9mm ball or modern HP in their carry guns?

No amount of who uses it magically improves the poor terminal performance.

3

I have seen secret service members (ERT team?) on the Whitehouse grounds carring the P90.

4

The secret service has ditched it for a number of reasons.

5

I was in a training class last week which included USSS agents; they stated the P90 never proved as effective as expected and is on its way out…

Likewise, almost every foreign military unit I am aware of that has attempted to use the P90 as a primary weapon during combat in Southwest Asia quickly dropped it in favor of larger caliber weapons.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=89538

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

6

Thanks, DocGKR. I did read the sticky previously, have forwarded it to the folks who need to read it.

7

Good to see you back on the forum Doc.

We had a similar thread pop up from a guy on Lightfighter trying to pimp the 5.7

You can’t beat physics, and the 5.7 is a glorified .22magnum

8

It worked great in Stargate…and movies don’t lie.

9

I have a PS90 and a FiveseveN in my collection…I keep them around because I think they are interesting weapons and they’re fun range toys.

I have no illusions about them being anything other than that, though, and neither would be at the top of my list of weapons to grab should some serious need arise. The data that has been presented here and elsewhere pretty clearly illustrates that the 5.7x28 has substandard terminal performance.

10

That list is a copy and paste job from fivesevenforums.com. Its a forum, as the name would indicate, dedicated to the 5.7x28 cartridge. Over the years that list has changed. It originally was touted as a list of agencies and armed forces who were either testing or using the round in the P90, PS90, and FiveseveN handgun.

I went on there a few years ago to contest the names of some PDs local to me that I have first hand knowledge of what they are using. For instance they had Dallas PD, Fort Worth PD, along with a few other agencies in the area. I read what a moderator there by the name of “Pillbox”, who is supposedly a Johnson County Constable, was claiming,and took issue with it. I was instantly banned, but the depts names were removed.

4 years ago Addsion, TX PD adopted the FN PS90. Here’s the story on it:

ADDISON (WBAP) - Addison police officers on routine patrol are now equipped with better firing power. The department has become the first in the nation to issue FN PS90 rifles to patrol officers. Most police officers carry AR-15 rifles.

“Where the FN differs, is its overall lethal range. That 400 meters is considered non-lethal; drastically different than the AR-15,” said Addison police Lt. Paul Spencer.

Spencer said the shorter shooting distance is important for places like Addison, which is a dense urban environment.

“In the event that we had a miss, we’re reducing the likelihood that somebody else is going to be injured,” said Lt. Spencer.

There’s been a trend over the last few years to arm police officers with higher fire power to avoid being out-gunned by criminals.

You know, North Hollywood didn’t expect it. Plano and Richardson didn’t expect it a few years ago when they had that bank robbery that went into quite a lengthy shoot-out. So, our philosophy is, you know, better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it," said Lt. Spencer.

That said, the biggest two reasons according to a pair of APD officers I have had lunch with was the Chief didnt (and still doesnt) like ARs, and because it “looks cool”. While sitting at lunch at the Schlotzky’s on Beltline and Marsh (in Addison) we all noted multiple 500+ meters ranges.

11

I think the main problem is that, as has been eluded to here many times, people get the words “primary weapon” stuck in their head when talking about the weapon and ammo. It wasn’t ever designed as a “primary” fighting weapon. It was, and still is, a PDW. (not a reference to your use of the word DocGKR, there are people out there that think it’s a drop in replacement for a .50cal.)

It’s not the long range “sniper” gun that many people who slap $40 Tasco 8x scopes on it want it to be. (seriously, have you seen some of the setups on the PS90’s out there?)

It’s not the end all be all pistol that people gush over for defensive purposes with the neutered civilian ammo in it.

It’s not in any way similar in it’s role in semiautomatic as the P90 is in full auto. It’s a bullet hose in it’s true form, that’s what it was designed to do.

All the above posted by me, a fan and owner of both the PS90 (sbr’d) and the 5.7 pistol. The PS90 interests me, but I understand it’s limitations in semiauto. The 5.7 intrigues me, but again, I understand it’s limitations with available ammo. I bought them for the same reason I bought the MP5 clone I have. I wanted one.

I fear other people bought them because they heard all the “super dooooper death dealer” hype that follows these guns like a stinky cologne. I mean really… like I said earlier, an 8x scope? A VFG on a gun that already HAS a vertical grip? A mag coupler on a gun that holds 50 rounds and only shoots one at a time?

Anyways, I like the little gun. It’s a shit ton of fun to fire in full auto.(rental) It murders the crap out of squeekies and rabbits. It’s light and maneuverable(in sbr form) and it’s a giggle machine to shoot with a suppressor on it because it sounds like an air rifle. Mostly, it’s a conversation piece.

12

I recently sold my PS90 due to a mountain of evidence growing against it as a viable defensive round. My PS90 was equipped with the highly desirable gen2 hammer pack but, unfortunately, I am not in the financial position anymore to own range toys and sold it to fund the purchase of a Barrett REC7 in 6.8.

I had attempted to overcome the lame factory ballistics by purchasing several hundred rounds of Elite Ammo’s X-terminator. This is basically once-fired brass with a Barnes 45 grain TSX bullet. I thought this had great potential if the minimum expansion velocity of this bullet was taken into account when factoring the effective range of this bullet. Based on comparisons with the excellent Black Hills 50 gr TSX bullet, the 45 gr probably would have had decent performance within 125 yards if the advertised velocities of 2600fps for the 16-inch PS90 barrel were correct since the bullet is giving up about 400 fps every 100 yards. However, this loading continued to pop the mag up and out every other round and is why I am sure it was discontinued. Regardless of the informationa and mis-information surrounding this caliber, this TSX loading had the potential to be every bit the performer at 100 yards the Black Hills 50 gr TSX is at 300 yards. This would also have put it in the same class as 7.5-inch short-barreled AR firing the same bullet. Comments?

13

I appreciate the replies, guys.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t help me much to know what some of y’all’s experiences have been, because there’s always some internet ninja who’ll counter it with a story about how his neighbor who is ex-SS has a P90 and loves it.

I’m not discounting your experiences, guys, I’m just saying on the freakin’ internet you can’t counter anecdotes with another anecdote. These guys have drunk deeply of the 5.7mm kool-aid, and nothing short of nuclear warhead class information is going to shut them up.

I’m going to have to try to get my hands on some credible primary source material: recent FBI or other respectable ballistics lab tests of newer expanding 5.7mm ammunition, reports from military or LE ordnance boards, or attributable statements from people in agencies that have actually used the 5.7mm in a significant number of antipersonnel engagements.

If anyone has a lead on this type of information for me to follow up on, please let me know. I do have a contact that may be able to get me some FBI test data, but that’s not certain yet.

Any and all help in this would be greatly appreciated. I’m not letting this issue go until I’ve got a satisfactory answer.

14

Don’t argue with stupid. They’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Seriously, there’s no dissuading fanboys, not even with empirical data. If they believe that the Libyan Army is a resounding endorsement of the 5.7mm’s performance, your ballistic data won’t even make a dent in their fantasy.

15

Todd, I could not have said this any better!

16

The phrase that comes to my head when 5.7x28mm rounds are mentioned:

The plural to ‘‘anecdote’’ is not ‘‘data’’.

17

18

Don’t think you will find any satisfactory answer.

I have a feeling that a particular round is nothing without proof of what it can do. How knowledgeable, strict, etc a person is in their reasoning will effect their personal acceptance point for a round. Those who will consider something effective via street hype and will follow it above anything else including mainstream ballistic theories and facts from professionals will not be persuader differently no matter how much science you put behind it.

Earth is flat vs round.

19

Thank you docgkr for the nice 5.7 thread sticky at the top of the forum.

20

Perhaps when USSS drops it fanboys will cry, and then accept the truth.