Is there any data on domestic performance of good 5.56 tactical/defensive loads (I.e. bonded soft point, TAP, etc) used by law enforcement or civilians for self defense? I know of the military’s issues with ball ammo since Somolia, but was wondering what reasoning a LE organization might have for wanting to procure a larger caliber when the bonded tactical loads they’ve been using seemed to work just fine in urban and CQB settings.
I dont have any “data” on our useage but our 55 grain Federal TRU has worked great. There was one instance shooting through a windshield and car door where it didnt instantly incapacitate the bad guy but other than that I cant think of any failures. One of our homicide detectives told me that when we shoot a bad guy with a rifle it makes his job easier since he has less bullet casings to account for, usually just one, and the bad guy is usually laying where he was shot. SWAT does have a bonded load available to them but I dont know of any shootings with it.
Our snipers usually use a 308 bolt gun. Id say thats probably for less wind drift and greater effect through glass.
One of my academy instructors shot a hostage taker with a Colt Commando using 75 grn TAP (might have been M262 but Im pretty sure it was TAP) at about 15 yards. It was very effective.
Thanks. I remember back mid-80s when the experts finally agreed that the 55 grain ball round from an A1 was more effective than the naysayers had claimed cause of its tumbling effects. The Army, of course then tried to make the 5.56 into a long range battlefield cartridge which seemed counter productive in the real word. At the same time law enforcement seized in the expanding variants because of their performance stopping bad guys without punching thru three additional houses. I have shot up cars for training and found that if a bullet thru the windshield hit the steering wheel rim, it would vaporize and put nothing more than shrapnel in the driver’s face, but the rest of the time out performed a handgun or an FN 5.7. I keep hearing grumbling that the 5.56 is a poor white tail deer cartridge, so I have to wonder if upgrading to a 7.62x51 AR is not a covert excuse to provide company issued deer rifles.
Bonded bullets of good design are where it’s at. Good expansion and you don’t frag from auto glass. Plenty of posts about effectiveness on deer and hogs, but I wouldn’t use a frag ginger round for this either.
White tail deer are approximately the size and weight of a human…
I love it when people tell me .223/5
56 are a bad white tail round. I’ve got 7 in the freezer from this year.
1 shot with 308
1 bow kill
5 all with either 55gn TSX or 70gn Tsx. One of those ran 4ft maybe, the rest less than 10ft, a couple crumpled on the spot.
The 308 shot was at about 280 yds. The other shots, excluding the bow,where from 35yds to probably 90yds.
To be fair Rob, SC deer are pretty famous for being German Shepard sized animals.
Depends on the part of the state. Swamps of the Low Country and some woodlands of the Up Country, the deer run smaller. In areas with row crops (e.g. soybeans) the deer are good sized. (Hence the term “bean field” rifle for shooting long distance across flat fields, such as Jarrett popularized.)
There is a wide array of data available online (if you search enough for it).
I will say that my PD uses federal bonded soft tip - http://le.atk.com/ammunition/federal/rifle/details.aspx?id=678
But I load my personal rifles with speer gold dot 64 gr - http://le.atk.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24448 - from personal experience and the testing I have done with others at range shooting doors, cars, plates (hard/soft), windshields, etc - this has performed best through various barrel lengths and has sucked the least.
I cannot confirm the data linked above, just googled quick to find it.
I have a lot of friends who have shot deer and hogs (200#) with it. It leaves big through/through holes and kills stuff dead very well. Mainly using monometal hollowpoints like the TSX, and bonded soft points. One friend of mine loves Tula 55gr FMJ. It kills stuff just as dead just fine for him, so who am I to argue? He killed a few people with M855, too. It worked fine also. But his patrol rifle is loaded with Gold Dot, I believe, so when the chips are down that seems to be his choice (or issued load?)
Friend of mine hunts Nilgai with 5.56 (70gr TSX) and kills them dead fast. I believe the Nilgai is a bit larger than any “deer” you will find.
I’m on my android and I’m tech challenged, can’t get the pics to load. I’m actually in Ga. Where I live our deer are WAY bigger than the fla deer and costal SC deer.
130ish is about average for a dressed doe here if that gives you an idea.
Ponder this…
We can split hairs over deer size, and let’s for argument sake say I’m giving up 50 lbs to an average 200 lbs man. That deer doesn’t know it’s been shot. A man may or may not know depending on the situation, but that deer/hog/yote doesn’t know it’s been shot, there’s no mental aspect to it, other than flight if possible. I think it’s a pretty dam good litmus test.
A few more that work well:
Nosler Partition 60gr.
Barnes TSX 70gr.
Winchester Nosler Bonded 64 gr.
Remington Hog Hammer Barnes TSX 62 gr.
Got some pretty good size deer here in Mississippi. My friends hunt with 5.56 55gr. fmj. If they can’t kill one from 200 yards in, the shot was off.
I’ve used 60gr Noslers with great success the past 3 seasons
Just thought I’d add this.
Anyone who has raised hogs and had to handle them, knows that a 200# hog is in no way comparable to a 200# man. They are insanely tough. Hogs are aggressive, mean, and strong on a whole other level. Strictly instinct (destroy) and lean muscle mass. The toughest 200# man is frail compared to a 200# hog. IMO even your average doe is tougher than any man. Animals are a lot tougher than humans, no comparison. This is my experience having raised a lot of animals. If it works on deer/hogs, it will definitely work on humans.
Amen to that. I’ve seen hogs do incredible things after being shot.
I watched one porker shot through both shoulders and blown up heart (with .444 Marlin) run a 100 yards to face his attacker before collapsing with a stem to stern shot.
I can’t speak for adjoining agencies, but we’ve had good success with the 62gr Federal Tactical Bonded (LE223T3). This includes open air as well as a few barrier shots. We are actually in the middle of doing a bunch of ballistic testing to see if we’re going to switch to something different and we’re not finding anything so far. As far as a caliber change, I could see one IF an agency is going to an SBR length rifle (10"-12") AND are expecting distance shoots (say out past 150yds). Currently there is NOTHING out there in .223/5.56 that expands reliably in a 10.5" barrel at 150 yds or further, and that meets FBI protocol (mainly the barriers at 10’ are the problem). A caliber swap if that is the mission requirement might address that problem, but it’s a pretty esoteric requirement for most LE agencies.
-Jenrick
You should be seeing expansion at 150 yards or so with RA556B, along with no issues on barriers at 10m.
Out a 10.5" gun I’d be VERY surprised to see any upset(expansion, frag, etc) at 150 or beyond with RA556B. If you are .mil/LE/Fed etc, drop me a PM with your work email and I can send you some data from Winchester themselves on what the round does out of short barrels.
-Jenrick