45 degree, short throw selector development history

With the new 45/90 degree compatible receivers available, and more from Spikes Tactical and AXTS already in production, we should elaborate on the 45 degree selector’s development history.

The 90 degree selector (what we deem, and therefore call legacy selector) is something of a mystery to us. We are hard pressed to think of tangible benefits to a 90 degree throw, other than requiring the shooter to be deliberate of his selector action, as the throw is longer than necessary.

The long throw notwithstanding, it also introduced another problem: when the selector is set to Fire, the lever points straight down and creates interference with the trigger finger.

With our semi auto ambidextrous selectors, we came up with levers of various geometry, length and thickness to reduce the interference, but it is impossible to get around it altogether. This is a design constraint, as it is based on the legacy 90 degree throw selector.

There’s typically no problem switching the weapon from Safe to Fire, the problem has to do with the reverse (switching from Fire to Safe), it will require the shooter to shift his grips. With an ambidextrous selector, the awkward motion is mitigated by the shooter’s being able to use his trigger finger to manipulate the trigger side lever, but there is no denying the ergonomics of this arrangement are of dubious quality.

For an M16, the ergonomics shortcomings are even worse.

For decades, other platforms have had the short throw selectors. HK, SIG, Beretta, FN, and lesser known military rifles have had them since the 60s.

The short throw arrangement certainly isn’t new on these platforms.

We made the short throw selector for the AR15 (and soon M16) platform. The result is fairly predictable: much faster selector manipulation, no shift in grips during lever manipulation from any direction, much reduced interference to the trigger finger.

We did run into a problem: liability. At 45 degrees, the position indicator groove no longer points to Fire on a standard receiver (at 12 o’clock). We thought of everything possible to get around it, and in the end we had to make our 45 degree selector incompatible with existing receivers by pressing a stainless steel pin block into the selector center, to prevent its use on a standard receiver. The idea is that the short throw selector needs to be used on a properly marked receiver, the standard receiver’s Fire marking is inadequate.

Note on the stainless steel pin block: the sole function of the pin is so the 45 degree selector cannot be inserted into a non-45 degree compatible receiver. The removal of which will constitute unauthorized modification and void the warranty. We do not publicly or privately suggest or recommend such modification.

The 45/90 degree compatible receivers are different in two areas: new Fire engraving at 68 degrees so the marking is suitable for both the 45 and 90 degree selector, and a notch cut in the left side of the receiver selector hole. This gives the receiver the unique ability to accept either the 45 or legacy 90 degree selector.

Below is an AXTS forged, 45/90 compatible receiver. Note the 68 degree pictogram for Fire. The radiused gauge looking line between 68 and 90 degrees is an AXTS exclusive, though it is not needed.

Here’s one of the videos we posted of the 45 degree selector in action. Note the shooter’s grip never moved during selector manipulation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRkmt3Hhu0Y

Also, I’d like to thank Military Moron for keeping the project alive. George and I had talked about the short throw selector from the beginning but decided against it, we did not think most folks would, or wanted to see past the Stoner 90 degree arrangement legacy and muscle memory from years of training.

We had put it on the back burner almost permanently, there were times WE were arguing against it.

This is one of these emails back in Feb of 2010:

On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 6:22 AM, militarymorons@xxx.com wrote:

> the SCAR uses a 45° throw. actually, it doesn’t go against any muscle
> memory - it’s the same motion and position - just shortened. i’ve been
> using a 45° throw for two years on my AR that shin made, and i didn’t
> experience a problem whatsoever.
> it’s not a huge leap like a different safety like an AK, FAL or HK.
> does muscle memory prevent you from shooting those weapons?
> the whole point of designing new parts is to update the platform. even
> if it’s 50 years old, it doesn’t mean that everyone has been shooting
> it for 50 years. there are new shooters every year who are buying
> their first AR. c’mon, you have to set yourself apart from the rest
> and offer something different :slight_smile:
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Roger <roger@xxx.com> wrote:

>> The 45 degree throw was something we talked about early on, can be
>> done but would go against the user’s training and muscle memory.
>> Fine on a new platform, but too radical to be of use on a 50yr old
>> system people would have to retrain to use :stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks MM :stuck_out_tongue:

and, as a lefty, i’d like to thank BAD for giving into my pestering. :slight_smile:
i think that ambi controls for the AR have been on the ‘back burner’ and not much of a priority in people’s minds, as most folks are right handed, and do fine with the standard controls. it’s understandable that companies are unwilling to invest the time and effort to cater to a seemingly small percentage of shooters.
however, as both strong and weak hand shooting became more widely practiced, it made sense to have controls that worked when shooting from either side. so, new weapon platforms like the SCAR, ACR, or handguns like the M&P etc incorporate ambi controls.
as a lefty, i’ve always championed the idea of making an ambi AR the standard, rather than the exception. many may not agree with that, but that’s fine. there will always be standard ARs with right handed controls for those who want them.
i, for one, appreciate companies like BAD who take the risk and help pave the way for advances in weapon development, rather than stay stagnant and satisfied with the status quo.

The 45 degree project was always tethering on being abandoned. We knew how to make them (we made about 10 prototypes, for those of you that have them, they might be worth something some day ;)), but the legal ramifications were monumental, to the extent we wanted to shelve it. The kind folks here and on TOS had given us suggestions as to how to get around the liability issues (high strength adhesive backed metal stickers, multiple pointers on the lever’s disc portion, etc.), all of which were unfortunately already discussed by us and found wanting.

The only way to bring it to market is to make it incompatible with legacy receivers, and mandatory for it to be used with special 45 degree receivers that have the correct Fire engravings. This isn’t a perfect solution, as it drives the manufacturing and retail price up, and limits the user base, all of which hurt sales. But it was either this way, or the 45 degree project would meet its end. As a company, we have always put our customers ahead of profit. We don’t say this much, for action speaks louder than words, we believe folks realize this by the things we do. We wanted to make a paradigm change in the AR world, and make available a meaningful and viable option for a venerable platform, the impact of which can be felt long after we’re gone. The modular ambidextrous selector is relatively minor in comparison to the kind of impact the 45 degree short throw will, we hope.

In case folks don’t already know, we give credit to MM for the current 90 degree and 45 degree selectors. There were other folks on TOS that also pushed for the 45 degree selector, we haven’t forgotten about them :wink:

Our root is in the M1/M14 platform, we launched the company with a single product: the M1/M14 T1 Multi-Tool. The modular ambidextrous selector wasn’t our first foray into the AR/M16 world, we had made and marketed the retrofit bracket and screw kit for the ubiquitous Matech BUIS.

MM has always been on us about making AR controls for lefties, and our selector line has a great deal of his wisdom and ideas incorporated :slight_smile:

Thank you Dee Mack for the video :smiley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S31ZJUB2T20&sns=em

Thanks Nate for another superb installation video, this time on the short throw BAD-CASS-ST :smiley:

ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfU1LfuvB_Y

Thanks for emphasizing the liability aspect of the short throw selector, and that the removal of the pin will void the warranty :slight_smile:

He did a very good job on that video…he also has a very clean and nice looking shop :slight_smile:

I love seeing lawyer pins being ground down…gives me that warm fuzzy inside:p

Lol, I do like Nate’s videos a lot, no annoying music, clean shop, and great instructions :slight_smile:

Thank you Miles for the video on the BAD-ASS-ST selector!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfDHiFsSJ0s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Thank you Nate for the review! :smiley:

The Arms Guide review

Can you make this? A 180 deg, fast throw AR selector lever for full auto use.

I can speed flick from safe to semi (90 deg). But, it would be great if I could speed flick from safe to auto (180 deg).

Check my video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4nd1lIXAWE

180 degree is where AUTO / BURST already is, 90 degree from SEMI. Do you want to omit the SEMI position altogether?

We’re developing a new M16 selector, the details of which we can’t disclose. Already done is the 0-50-180 (safe, short throw to semi, a long throw to auto) :slight_smile:

Cool.
When doing the speed flicks straight to auto, there is a slight delay.
It is really handy to put up a full auto barrage at the start of the fight.
More power.

All I have to say presently is I can’t comment on this yet.

The undisclosed party, and the manufacturer which tasked us to develop it may not wish to be known.