4 MOA VS. 2 MOA

I’d imagine that this subject has been addressed, but I couldn’t find anything by search.

I’m new to red-dot optics. I bought a Burris XTS-135, which seemed like a pretty good red dot. However, I just figured I wanted the longer battery life of an Aimpoint, so I sold it. It had a 3 MOA which seemed pretty cool.

Anyway, I’m going to put this on a 10.5" LMT (once my darn paperwork gets back). I’ll be shooting mostly at 50 - 100 yds. I’d also like to shoot accurately.

So, would there really be a difference between the 4 & 2 MOA? What do most people prefer? I’ve heard that the 4 MOA can turn into a big cluster of “red grapes.” Will I still be able to hit metal sihlouettes at 200-300 yds with the 4 MOA (provided I do my part as the shooter)?

I personally prefer a 2 MOA, but that is just my preference, and works better for me with a magnifier.

The biggest issue with larger dots is the amount of target covered by the dot.
If you are shooting at something that is smaller than the dot, you will not be able to easily center the dot on that spot. I have not seen an Aimpoint whose dot presented the “bunch of grapes” you mention.

As long as your target at 200 yards is 8 inches or larger (provided a 200 yard zero), you won’t have an issue with the 4 MOA dot size obscuring your target.

A 10.5" gun screams for a T-1 (or H-1), which is available only with a 4 MOA dot right now, and fits with the realistic use range of the weapon.

There are advantages to bigger dots- some find them easier to aquire during presentation versus smaller dots and picking the dot out when on a light background.
Zero range and ability to apply hold-over/under are bigger concerns than actual dot-size though.

But that’s just my opinion.

Overall 2 MOA is more flexible, but my eyes pick up the 4 MOA dot better. I have pretty good vision, but for some reason I find it too easy to lose a 2 MOA dot. At the end of the day it comes down to personal preferences, I suppose. Plenty of people have successfully used both.

A 10.5" LMT does indeed scream out for a T-1 (mine has one on it :)) and at the ranges your suggesting a larger dot won’t be a drawback. If I recall correctly, FJB said the dot on the Aimpoint Micro was actually around 3.5 MOA or so.

Derek

“Zero range and ability to apply hold-over/under”

Could you expand on this or direct me to where I can read up on it?

Thanks for the post and info.

I am not trying to teach you how to suck eggs, so if this is too basic, I apologise.

Remember that a fired bullet must follow an arc-like trajectory to mid-range targets. The distance you zero your weapon will affect where the bullet is in relation to the sights at certain distances in it’s path.

The average line of sight over bore for an AR is 2.6 inches. This means that with a zeroed sight the bullet will begin it’s path 2.6 inches below the dot, then travel upward* until it hits the dot (initial point), continue upward until it reaches the apex of it’s trajectory (max height or mid-range height, also incorrectly called max ordinate- which really applies to a max range trajectory), and then drop until it reaches the true zero point (assuming that the shooter is zeroing at actual distance, not the initial point).
*-by upward I do not mean to imply that there is some magic force that lifts the bullet, the barrel is angled upward in relation to the sights, which causes the bullet’s path to be in an “upward” direction. Technically the bullet is constantly falling away from the bore line.

What this basically means is that there are only 2 distances at which point of aim (POA) will be point of impact (POI)- the initial point and the zeroed distance. All other distances will see the POI higher or lower than the POA, though it may be very small indeed.

The times that hold-over is critical is at close range (0-25 yards) and long range (past the zero distance). The mid range stuff isn’t too difficult, as a 200 yard zero keeps the bullet within 2" of LOS (theoretically hitting the dot) from 10 yards to about 230 yards (M4A1, Mk262). Distances at which this occurs will vary according to ammunition, velocity, and LOS over bore.

There are some really good ballistic calculators to determine trajectory. I personally prefer the JBM Ballistic Calculator. The issue is that you will need to know your Ballistic Coefficient and muzzle velocity. The BC isn’t too difficult to find, but muzzle velocity really needs to be determined by you with a chronograph. Published MVs tend to be a little generous.

The other problem is that these numbers are just numbers, not reality or a substitute for experience. They are a guide only. You must shoot your weapon at actual distance to determine exactly where you hit with your weapon with your ammo. Considering that average shooter/ammo/weapon combinations will provide about 3-4 MOA, predicting exactly where the bullet will land for a single shot becomes a little fuzzy.

What it boils down to is that short of the initial point and past the zero point you will need to hold over the target to some degree to achieve consistent hits, and between those two points you may need to hold under, depending on your precision needs.

The good thing is that you have a range that permits zeroing at distance instead of being forced to zero at the initial point as many are.

Apologies for the lengthy post, hope it helps.

I prefer the T1/H1 for 10-11.5" guns.
With my 10" LMT suppressed I can keep 5 shots of Mk262Mod1 in the letter A on the head of IPSC target at 50yds. (not just in the IPSC targets A zone in the head, but all in the letter A in the head which is about 1"x1").

FJB of Aimpoint has said that the actual dot size on the T1/H1 is 3.2MOA even though they advertise it as 4MOA. It’s a great optic for a ‘short’ gun.

I just installed the Redi-mag (lightened up by BlueForceGear) and put one of my FDE E-MODs on my 12.5" SBR pictured below. It’s makes it balance out a little better. The M4S on this gun is a great match for is size/weight.

2MOA.

C4

I have a Micro T-1 on my LMT 10.5 " SBR. I really enjoy the T-1 on the SBR because of the size of the optic. If you do your part it is a very accurate setup.

You are the only one who can make this decision. Everyone has a different opinion on which one to use. Find someone who will let you look at both so you can make that decision. I don’t think you can go wrong with either.

I have several Aimpoints with 2 & 4 MOA reticles. I have 2 MOA’s on rifles that I use magnifiers with. I have rifles setup with 4 MOA Aimpoints that I know I will not use magnifiers with.

ALL DAY LONG!!

YMMV…