I sold my M&P9, and i’m thinking of replacing it with an M&P .357sig.
I know it costs a bit more for ammo. I also know several agencies have opted to use the 357sig instead of .40 s&w.
Opinion of the .357sig as a defensive cartridge? Is the recoil as snappy as the .40s&w? Conventional wisdom tells me it would be, since the velocity is so high…
The .357sig is indeed harder in guns. More muzzle energy also translates into more impact energy on the gun parts.
There are a “few” agencies that use the .357sig. The vast majority use .40S&W. Particularly with Federal agencies. The only ones that currently issue the .357sig are Air Marshals(glorified security guards), and the secret service(rarely shoot anyone). Agencies that actually do the shooting such as DEA, ATF, CBP, BP, DOD, US Marshals,…etc all use .40S&W. The .357sig has probably the fewest number of agencies around the country that use it compared to the other major calibers.
In “measurable” testing of the .357sigs expansion and penetration capabilities, it is virtually identical to the 9mm. So when it comes to physically damaging a person, it does the same thing as a 9mm. The .40 on the other hand makes a larger hole, and does better at penetrating through windshields due to its higher bullet mass. I don’t see much of a benefit to using .357sig over the other calibers.
First I will say to do a search because this exact topic has been covered numerous times.
As to the question I will let others who are WAY more qualified than myself to answer in more technical detail, but from what I can garner the .357 sig, while not a terrible cartridge, doesnt do anything DRASTICALLY better than a good +p 9mm round and does NOTHING better than a decent .40 round. This is from looking at DocGKR’s ballistics gel testing and reading his views on the round. For the cost you might as well just stick with a good +p 9mm round or go to a .40.
For anyone who does not get free guns and free ammo, the costs outweigh the benefits.
I have both a full size and compact M&P in 357sig and love them both. They replaced my 1911s as carry weapons. The round is by far the most accurate I have ever shot and IMO recoil is less than a 40, it’s more of a push back then a muzzle rise type of recoil. I have both 40 and 9 conversion barrels for both so it’s like six guns in two! Another good point is since S&W has a lifetime warranty who cares about the wear and tear, if it breaks they fix it! Ammo has not been an issue either’ as an example I just bought two cases of Federal for $211 per 1,000 rounds! Watch the auction sites as there are always deals on ammo. I love the 357sig and am going to stick with it for the long run.
Texas DPS carry 357SIG… think they been known to shoot a bad guy or two once in awhile… While not a “Federal Agency” I would think that they take their shooting pretty seriously.
-Tom
I am comfortable suggesting that you look into a .40 caliber pistol instead if you are seeking more oomph than 9mm and don’t want a .45.
.357 SIG does not offer very much new and introduces complications that can be otherwise avoided.
Performs well through autobodies, that is the extent of it’s advantage over 9mm.
Specifically, what are the complications?
One factor to consider is the comparatively higher chamber pressure when compared to the 9mm, 9mm +p, 40 S&W, and 45.
In comparison to using 9mm, .40, or .45…using .357sig complicates your situation.
In using .357sig you have to deal with:
-More expensive training AND defensive ammo. That bottle necked case is more difficult to manufacture.
-More difficult to reload due to a tiny crimping area around the neck. Many reloaders have to glue the bullet into place.
-Ammo is more difficult to find…particularly top end defensive loads.
-Your pistol will wear out faster.
-You have to service the pistol more often to keep it functioning well.
-More blast than the other calibers translating into more disorientation to the shooter.
-More flash than the other calibers which can ruin your night vision and make it difficult to reaquire your target in low light.
-More recoil than the other calibers which increases time in between shots in order to make ACCURATE follow-ups. Anybody can rapid fire a heavy caliber, but the real test is how quickly they can follow up with tight groupings.
A lot of negatives to using the .357sig…with only theoretical(more like mythical) benefits to using it.
Well there are a number.
The first is logistical. .357 SIG is less common and sourcing it is more challenging than the big 3. Fact. Sure it can be had if you look around online, but if you walk into Wal-Mart on the way to the range you can easily find 9mm FMJ, not so much .357 SIG. Unlike the big 3, it is also a royal PITA to reload and care must be taken when doing so.
The second is the increased wear on pistols. Due to the very short and sharp recoil impulse more force is exerted areas like locking blocks, frame pins, breech faces, etc. I know on Glocks the locking blocks on 31s go tits up faster than any of the other guns.
Finally and frankly my biggest concern is the ammunition itself. The cartridge leaves itself with very little margin for error in the way that it is loaded and dangerous pressures can easily evolve. This is particularly a concern when you are talking about JHPs that have been chambered more than once or twice. Setback occurs to some extent whenever you chamber a round, but in most calibers a good amount of tolerance is built into how much space the powder has to expand before a case failure is a possibility. With .357 SIG that margin of error is miniscule.
Yes, they carry them along with the 3200 Bushmasters they bought.
Just what I needed, thanks a lot.
add to the list,
North Carolina Highway Patrol,
Tennessee issues a Glock 31,
Bastrop County SD.
The only advantages I see to the cartridge is if you’re a very rural dept and your back up would be DPS,and maybe enhanced feeding due to the bottleneck design.
my understanding is that the life of a .357sig semi auto is around 3000 rounds due to the stresses the bottlenecked round puts on the pistol.
can anyone comment on this?
Nailed it!
The only way to get around the abuse that the .357sig puts on guns, and the negative effects of recoil is to lengthen the action. For instance, the .38 Super and 9x23 Winchester use a .45acp length action which spreads the recoil forces over a longer distance. The recoil of both those cartridges feels like shooting 9mm, and the abuse on the pistol is greatly reduced to even less than the .45acp. The 9x23 Win has greater velocity than the .357sig, and it is able to use heavy .357mag bullets.
So, in my mind even if there was something to using a higher velocity bullet in terms of incapacitating someone, the .357sig is the wrong cartridge to use for a whole host of reasons. The 9x23 Win seems to make up for many of the .357sig’s weaknesses and would be a true .357magnum automatic. The 9x23 is essentially a modernized .38 Super that uses the same chamber specs, only it is higher pressured with a true auto rim and its specs are a 125gr bullet at 1450fps.
I have not had much experience with the .357 Sig other than when we T&E some Glocks in early 2003-2004. However, I read Paul Howe of CSAT’s recent AAR of one of his instructors classes. He made some very good observations of his own carry gun, a Glock 32, the compact size in .357 Sig.
Here is the link, look on page 7
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/info-letters/11/CSATUpdate_Nov11.pdf
Paul is a great instructor, as has been said here before. I enjoy his insight also and thought this may be helpful from a function standpoint.
I will admit, too, part of my bias against .357SIG isn’t the above listed practical reasons, so much as I see people uncritically embrace it as .357 MAG STOPPING POWER IN A SEMI AUTO! Which brings with it this whole Thor and Mjolnir, Hammer of God smug attitude that gives them false security in the power of their pistol.
I had 2 buddies in college who both were converts to the church of .357. One of them bought a 150 dollar conversion barrel for his .40 cal P229, the other bought an entirely new Glock 32. They then spent 1.20 a round on DoubleTap JHPs and would not stop crowing about their “powerful defensive handguns.” It was a little hard to watch.
They then proceeded to never actually practice with .357 SIG because it was too expensive… the one time that they did when I was around the Glock had multiple FTFs (with a non-factory replacement barrel in a non-factory slide…). Sigh…