Of course you run into ergonomics, optics, and all manner of things from the standpoint of the physical attributes of the platform that lend the M4 to better use for LE/Home defense, etc.
My question is as relates to hog or deer hunting.
How does the 357 Magnum from an 18" lever gun compare to a good controlled expansion round (70gr TSX, etc.) from a 16" 5.56 carbine in the field on deer/hog?
I’m a lever gun guy from way back, and have hunted hogs, deer, and bear with them (30-30, 45-70, and 44 Mag)…and in my opinion, which in this case is based on some experience…those rounds will kill cleanly, quickly, and effectively…and they do it best with hard cast lead bullets with big, wide, flat meplats (meplat is the nose of a bullet in case some don’t know).
I expect the 357 would be the same…it comes down to the velocity and the difference in the way the bullets react at different speeds.
A 223 (5.56) bullet at 2,500 - 3,000 fps kills by fragmentation and this works.
A slow moving larger caliber bullet kills best by plowing a golf ball sized hole through vital organs…a 425 grain wide flat nosed 45 caliber bullet moving at a leisurely 1,600 fps will punch that golf ball sized hole through a 2,000 pound buffalo…from bow to stern! I read a quote somewhere that always stuck with me (might have been The Box o Truth) regarding the 45-70…it read “Don’t piss off a buffalo hunter…because there is no such thing as cover”.
I have sent 405 grain slugs lengthwise through bears weighing 350 lbs. myself…more than once.
Its 2 entirely different mechanisms…the light fast bullets have their strong points, but so do slow heavy ones.
That may not exactly answer the question asked…but I thought it might be some food for thought.
And not to dissuade anyone from this forum…but when it comes to lever guns and people who know them…Marlin Owners Forum is the place to be…its the M4Carbine for lever guns.
I would be comparing something like a 125gr Gold Dot or DPX hand-loaded to about 2100fps to a 70gr TSX at about 2650fps. Not necessarily hard-cast flat meplat bullets.
In that case…I think the 223 will be the best bet.
Most 357 bullets won’t stand those velocities, especially not 125’s…I’m not sure even Barnes will operate as designed at that speed…Hit a hog in the shoulder (bone) with that and its gonna be a messy wound…but not enough penetration for a quick kill.
That said…I’ve never used Barnes bullets in a pistol caliber…I have had good results with them in 223 and 243 though.
I found this, which supports your analysis:
http://lofigunandgame.blogspot.com/2012/01/357-mag-terminal-performance-tests-from.html
You will find a whole lot more if you check out Marlin Owners…and I’m not soliciting for membership there…we have nearly 50,000 of them already…I’m just saying that’s where you’ll find a bunch of people who hunt with lever guns…and slow, heavy, lead.
Hope I can help as I’ve shot deer with both of the mentioned firearms, as well as a 44 Mag carbine.
For hunting deer texas style; from an elevated box blind sitting ~100 yards from a corn feeder, I prefer the lever action carbines.
I’ve taken two bucks and two does with my Marlin 1894C .357 Magnum lever action. All four were clean kills with the deer dropping right there “like a sack of potatoes.” All shoulder shots and none made exit wounds. All four were shot in the 100 yard range with the factory iron sights and I used Buffalo Bore’s with 158gr Speer Gold Dot bullets all four times too. 4 for 4 ain’t bad. In addition, I have used a 6" .357 revolver to take a doe with same bullets from a bow blind. ‘bout a 15 yrd shot and she hobbled off and died quietly a few yards from where she was shot. Lovin’ the carbine and .357 magnum altogether.
I’ve since killed one buck and one doe with my Marlin 1894SS lever action in 44 mag. It has a 2-8X32 scope on it, but I have still only shot it around the 100 yard range. Similar results, both dead right there, but with exit wounds. I was using the leverevolution ammo though.
I’ve taken a few deer with my 16" 5.56 carbine and all made a run for it. Never far, but none ever just flopped over dead like I’ve witnessed with the lever action rifles. There has been a time or two that I prefered to have the AR in the stand, when a pack of hogs come out and I harvest two piggies rather than just one had I had the lever action.
So AR’s do the trick, and they have that advantage for a faster follow up shot, but the lever actions do one job and they do it cleaner. I’m sure you already figured all that out.
Comes down to this: if sitting in a box blind, I like having the lever actions better. If sitting in a stand or tree blind or walking in the brush, I like having the AR better as it’s a little faster for follow up shots. I prefer the AR for pigs and the levers for deer. But we’ve all been there, hunting in a box blind with a deer rifle and a cuvy of quail walk right under you. You wish you brought a shotgun. Or you brought the iron sight lever action and a monster buck walks out at 300 yards and you just don’t feel ethical throwing 150-200 grains of lead out there without certaintity of where it’s gonna hit, and you wonder if it would have the energy to kill even if you did hit him. Whereas I “think I’d feel alright about going for a head or neck shot with my 16” AR and 4X ACOG scope with some 62gr or 75gr lead tip bullets.
Again, hope that helps ya out.
My wife uses a .410 shotgun with slugs for deer hunting. It is a sitting in a blind type situation and the ranges are less than 40 yards. The load pushes a 90 grain .357 cal. soft led slug at about 1700-1800fps. She usually hits them in the heart/lung area and only two have untracked so far. Depending on the number of bones she hits along the way, there is usually a nice exit wound so I can’t share pictures of the recovered bullet. If she was shooting much more than 50-75 yds, I think the performance would start to suffer quite a bit.
Well it’s been like a hundred years ago, but my fav .357 competition (international metallic silhouette association) load was a 192 grain hard cast with gas check with a heavy charge of WW 296 and small rifle primer. Second best was a 180 gr jacketed flat point (by Nosler, IIRC).
These took the heavy steel rams at 200 yards with any hit higher than the pecker; and IMO would be better suited for hunting than a light weight HP.
IMSHA is still around so I’ll bet heavy / gas checked / hard cast bullets are too.
A good bonded JSP or TSX would be hard to beat for killing deer and feral hogs. The AR is pretty much the king of feral hog slaughter here in Texas. Most load FMJs though.
Yep. I load TSX bullets for any game to be taken with an AR, but get to the ranch and my buddies are loading mags with M193 and M855. The hogs get dead pretty quick with all of them.
I’ve never shot any animal with a pistol caliber(might change soon with a G19 and Gold Dots,) but I can’t see modern .223 loads getting surpassed measurably as they have performed admirably and even antiquated loads have performed adequately.
I’ve shot deer with a 30.06 using both Nosler Partitions and Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets that went lung-heart-lung and the deer ran eighty yards full steam before dropping. I’ve shot deer with 53 grain TSX bullets that dropped them on the spot. There’s an element of randomness when you’re trying to kill something, which is unfortunate but true. Pick a load that expands at the distance you’ll be shooting at, penetrates through bone, and then make the shot.
I hate to see animals suffer, and would not be doing most of my hunting with an AR if I felt like it wasn’t doing an adequate job of ending life humanely and quickly. I’m also firmly anti-head shot unless you’re absolutely 100% of the time capable of making it. I’ve seen a deer that died of days or weeks after it was shot missing it’s jaw and it was heartbreaking.
WS6
Now change that 125 GD to a 125gr HC lead bullet at the same velocity. That little 357 mag will vip right through a deer or hog out to 175 yard or more! 