Offer facts about what? I am not the one stating what is or isn’t, I am still waiting to hear about the “lying companies”. I would like to hear the “facts” and specifics of which companies are lying and what they are lying about. Anyone?
You stated “cooler and cleaner.” Looking forward to your corrboration; perhaps you could answer 87GN’s questions?
As far as lying companies, markm is referring to past conduct of LWRC.
Certainly. I will do my best and perhaps you could reciprocate with your take on his questions? Perhaps he could do the same and respond to his own questions?
Otherwise, shoot one and you will know. From the chamber rearward, it is irrefutable that the piston system is cooler AND cleaner. If you doubt it, shoot a DI for a 100 rds and try and hold the carrier w/o your asbestos glove. Heck, shoot 50 rds. I have done that little test several times. You tube Vickers doing so with the 416. Nevermind, he is probably wrong.
Not too worried about it, gonna get hot either way. I would be more concerned with the gas tube than the chamber.
Irrelevant, but about the same I would guess
I would go piston since there is no gas tube.
What?
Numbers as in degrees? Celsius? Fahrenheit? Nope.
Perhaps he can answer for himself? I appreciate your attempt to speak for your friend, but he made a statement and I am curious as to what he bases that statement on. I see a plural in there as a general reference to any company that makes a piston driven M16. LWRC happened to be the target/example for this drivel. To refresh memories:
Perhaps you can afford readers here additional information about “lying companies”? Like I said, I don’t have a dog in the fight but am curious as to what raised the wrath of markm, as well as apparently some others like yourself and 87GN directed towards LWRC and the other “lying companies”. I think that is the real question here, not an attempt to redirect the discussion away from the real topic by asking me questions.
Coleslaw, I don’t know markm from Adam. It’s a known fact about the history of LWRC. A bit of Googling will do you good there.
This web site has helped drive home the realization that slapping a piston on a direct impingement gun is not a good thing but it is expensive with no real gains except maybe in SBR and high suppressor use guns. If you do a bit of reading on here instead of saying “well so and so company does it, so it MUST be better” you’ll see that DI guns run just as well and are far cheaper.
Companies follow trends in the market place.
Littlelebowski, why are you trying to argue? All I asked for was an answer to a simple question referencing a statement that I didn’t make, but you have wholeheartedly supported. That question is not whether I think piston or DI is better.
You don’t know me either, so prior to offering advice on what and how I should present what I know, maybe you should do a little research.
Back on topic. You still have yet to answer that simple question, and that is who are and what have the ‘lying companies’ done to raise your ire? Don’t try to redirect by turning this discussion into something else as you continue to attempt to do. That only shows me you don’t have a real case in the debate.
That is the question at hand, the ‘lying companies’. If you can’t answer the question, I have to assume based on your comments that the piston producing companies and their owners/directors are less that forthright. Is that what you are saying Littlelebowski, that Ronnie Barrett a liar? Yes or no. Is Karl Lewis a liar? Yes or no. Are Darren and the boys at LWRC liars? Yes or no. Is POF liying? Yes or no. Is S&W lying? Yes or no. Is Saber Defense lying? Yes or no. Is HK lying? Yes or no. Is Colt Defense lying? Yes or no.
This website has done nothing to ‘drive home’ the realization of anything other than that there are a myriad of opinions relative to this weapons platform. Also, nowhere in my posts did I say anything close to:
Don’t put words in my mouth, and come up with some real world responses and/or answers.
Dude, I am going to ask one last time:
- Who are the “lying companies” that are the subject of this discussion. Period. Nothing else.
- What are the lies?
- Is this your personal experience?
- If not, whose?
- What were the circumstances?
If you can’t answer, then the discussion is over.
I don’t need personal experience with Joe Biden to know that I don’t want to do business with him and like I said, Google is your friend. You are coming in here, talking about the benefits of the piston guns and offering no corroborating evidence of your own.
You must have not read the article in the first post, or you would have seen that Mike Pannone fired 330 rounds in about 20 minutes and then held the bolt by the lugs with his fingertips.
Not too worried about it, gonna get hot either way. I would be more concerned with the gas tube than the chamber. [/quote]
Well, according to the manufacturer of both items listed, they’re far more concerned with chamber temperature than almost anything else (can you tell me why?). So…I don’t know that this demonstrates a high level of knowledge about the system on your part. Oh, and the answer you’re looking for is “heat sink barrel nut.”
Irrelevant, but about the same I would guess[/quote]
All else being equal, it’s about 150 degrees hotter after 80 rounds have been fired. That is, the gas piston/op-rod gas block is 150 degrees hotter. And it’s far from irrelevant. Again, I don’t know that this demonstrates a high level of knowledge about the system on your part.
I would go piston since there is no gas tube. [/quote]
Due to the high gas block temp, average handguard temperatures taken at 4 locations and measured over 15 minutes are higher for the gas piston/op-rod weapon. Again…
What? [/quote]
You didn’t understand the question? I thought it was pretty simple. Which is more effective at reducing heat (under the handguards, such as the barrel) - a gas piston/op-rod system or a free float rail that allows air to circulate?
Numbers as in degrees? Celsius? Fahrenheit? Nope.[/quote]
Don’t worry, no one else who thinks like you can either. They’ll yell at me until they’re blue in the face that their piston/op-rod weapon runs cooler than a refrigerator, but they’re never able to say exactly how much cooler. Because if they had access to actual data, they’d be talking about the parts of the weapon where the gas piston/op-rod system does (slightly) reduce temperatures - while acknowledging that other temperatures are significantly increased.
Wow! Some people get real serious about this stuff!
I do not own a piston-acutated AR, but my understanding of thermodynamics tells me that the heat is going to have to go somewhere. In a DI system the gas is routed back to the bolt so one would assume there would be more heat in the BCG. In a piston driven rifle that heat is going to be concentrated in the barrel and gas system. The amount of heat is the same, but the areas of concentration are different.
So the real question (Which I don’t think there is any empirical evidence to support yet) is whether or not higher temps in the BCG cause premature failure of the bolt or carrier.
Does anyone have any specific testing from a reliable source (Not some manufacturing sales brochure and/or website) as to the reliability difference in a piston vs. DI rifle? Heck, I don’t think you can really make a claim that one is better than the other due to the lack of a standard and the differences between different piston systems, but that’s just my .02 cents…
I like AK’s and I like AR’s. I like DI and piston systems, but I think I’m with everyone here who wants to see real world data before making the gas piston plunge.
I’m staying out of this one. 
But I will drop a few links to interesting layman’s temp measurements of piston and DI guns, and one with NiB coated BCG just cause it’s interesting.
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/04/04/heat-dissipation-two-schools-of-thought/
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/06/heat-dissipation-insulate-or-circulate-tube-or-rod/
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/10/does-nickel-boron-reduce-heat/
I saw one of these IR thermometer tests involving an AK somewhere but can’t dig it up right now.
Wow! Good link! I’ll be chewing over that data for a while.
I’m still wondering if there can be an analysis on mean-time to failure between the two systems. Perhaps the piston system in an AR is just too new to have that data. Oh well.
With all due respect, did you fall and hit your head? I did not say anything about any benefits of the piston system other than a cooler bolt carrier and cleaner weapon (common sense and knowledge), and only because you asked. Outside of that, I don’t give a damn.
I want to know about the LYING COMPANIES! Who is LYING? Which companies are lying? What are they lying about? That has been my question since it the statement was posted and all I get from you is vapid rhetoric.
You supported that statement throughout this thread and are hiding under your desk, as I have not seen a sensible response from you yet. You can’t answer one question presented to you much less five or six.
Damn I didn’t want to get into this, I just wanted to know about the lying companies.
It’s time consuming and, more importantly, expensive to get real data about such stuff. I’d love to see it to but don’t hold your breath. Gather what you can with a grain of cynical tech-thought from the random anecdotal examples floating around. They are just little machines after all, simple one’s thankfully.
Coleslaw, I’m not wed to any system - well, that’s not true - the AR Platform is OUR platform so I guess I’m “wed” to it.
Google LWRC and see what you find. Just like you’ve been requested to.
I like gas piston systems. Period. And I like DI Systems. Period.
Both offer advantages and they both have disadvantages.
Thermocycling the critical part (extractor spring) MAY be an advantage - if only theoretically - with the SLIGHTLY cooler bolt assembly of the gas piston. Until someone can model and correlate then apply the measured boundary conditions, model and correlate we don’t know explicitly. This is true for other perceived advantages and disadvantages of both systems.
Purchase your passion and let sleeping dogs (of war) rest, brother.
We should start a new thread.
First off: Real world operators, and armorer support like IG, KevinB, and others here have really ruined GP operated ARs for me. Due to cracked receivers, bolt lug tension - and premature breakage, and other issues.
I’d like to add that as much as I like the company (current management) markm is correct about LWRC.
They have lied in the past. Common knowledge. However as LWRCi I don’t think this is very much true, but if somebody can correct me that’d be appreciated.
I wouldn’t buy another LWRCi product. (Have owned multiple units in the past. Can’t talk highly enough of their customer service.)
I’ve come to trust the words of guys like Iraqgunz,KevinB, markm, and scottryan.
However, I’d still like to know if he thinks that Ruger, H&K, Saber, Adams, POF, S&W, and others have lied, and what was lied about.
If this information can be provided, I am just as curious.
Oh - don’t argue with 87GN. He knows what he is talking about.