These are from a Windham “20 inch Gov’t. Rifle” with a LaRue MBT and no optics.
Do I have a lemon? Shouldn’t my groups be smaller? I’m waiting to hear back from WW…
With iron sights? From my perspective, having bad vision, seems fine. If you’re really anal about the barrel’s potential I’d say put a scope on it, get some match ammo and a lead sled before you go swapping barrels
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for your reply…
Yes, with as issued iron sights and my 61 y.o. eyes.
Perhaps, I’m expecting too much.
What’s the extreme spread of those groups?
Anything within 2" I’d accept using a normal a normal at with m855. Even a bit larger could be ok.
Shooting position? Gun supported or rested in some way?
Your level of experience and ability, formal marksmanship training?
It’s almost certainly you, nothing to do with the gun or ammo.
Try as solid a rest or support as you can make, with as small of a target as you can align the sights to.
I too have the WW government which is now scoped. But with the factory sights (rear on carry handle), I could easily punch a nickel size group at 50 meters with a full magazine using a single sandbag. Possibly you (eyesight, etc). I’ve never tried your listed ammunition through my WW. The only two I’ve run are the basic Winchester Q3131 and Wolf Gold. I do want to run some 70+ grain at 200/300 meters or so to see how it does. I turn 67 soon but fortunately I still have 20/10 vision thanks to LASIK back in 2004/5. I have a feeling you just need to dial it in a bit more and perhaps refine your technique. Hard to say if not there. But if your vision is correctable, I’d likely make that my foundation from which to build accuracy and consistency. Good luck. Funny thing: When I first got the Windham and was zeroing the hard sights, the only adjustment I made was a tiny windage movement to the left which gave me about a 1/4" improvement at 50 meters. Left it right there. Could barely detect any movement on the center rear sight line. To say the least, I was impressed and pretty happy about that.
Looks good to me based on the ammo used.
See above
Nice shooting. Put on a good scope and I bet you will get the same groups at 100yds.
Please refer to the modified pics above.
I don’t know…I’m thinking about selling the upper for one from White Oak Armament.
Does anyone who competes in NRA Service Rifle care to offer their opinion on the groups?
Not bad considering…
#1- You used crap ammo… Get some match ammo loaded with 77 Grain OTM bullets
#2- Considering the barrel isn’t floated and you are shooting off of an improvised rest… Inconsistent loading of the rifle on the bags could be half of your problem
#3- You don’t exactly have a match grade upper.
#4- You say you didn’t just fall off of the turnip truck but how much AR precision shooting have you done? It isn’t easy. Some people never master it. I am one of them!
Don’t fall victim to the internet BS groupings you see posted all over. The vast majority of people aren’t shooting as well as what you posted, the difference is they won’t state it. Some websites are worse than others, and in some cases you have manufacturers blatantly conning people who jump in as well.
The majority of police officers and military persons will not shoot that well in training. The majority of civilians have no idea how to make a weapon function. The majority of AR15 shooters will not better your groups.
The above certainly doesn’t mean you can’t shoot better, nor does it mean your equipment isn’t capable of shooting better. However, it is important to keep a level playing field and be realistic in what your question of is the “group size too large”.
Amen to that brother! Even with the “right” equipment, I couldn’t devote the time required to compete with many of those folks.
Here’s the best I could muster from that session…once again, center hold on the target.
Thanks for your valuable input! I appreciate all of you taking time to respond…
Looks good to me brother! Nice shooting.
Looks real good to me. Your rifle seems to like that ammunition. Now adjust your sights to the center of your groups not the individual bullet hole. in other words shoot 5-10 rounds and if you feel good about it adjust to the center of the group. Don’t chase the PO aim one shot at a time. You never will get it sighted in! Adjust the zero to the center of your groups. When it is sighted in make the plunge… Screw groups! With the accuracy your rifle exhibits hitting clay targets at 50 should be a chip shot. When you get bored move them further out. I would rather be able to bang a 12" plate all day long at 200 yards than shoot a 1" group occasionally at 50.
1.8 Moa is fine for match grade ammo and a cl barrel and new shooter. Once you find a load the gun likes, maybe get it down to 1-1.3 moa. 10 shot groups. Tight groups take time and patience, and lots of practice.
With your rifle, shooting position and ammo that looks fine for iron sights. It’s what I’d expect from myself under the same conditions.
I’ve seen much, much worse. (much)
For me (most?) an RDS is faster AND more accurate than irons. A scope (even a 1x) a little slower than an RDS but more accurate still.
I’m not putting down irons. I think that kind of simplicity is great at ranges I can recognize a persons face. Low-profile and lightweight. But 50-75 yds is really all I care to use them out to. Even with astigmatism RDS are easier and more accurate for me.
Give a low-power optic a try I think you’ll like it. Leopold and Weaver make some nice inexpensive 1-3X scopes. (under $200 and not Chinese) They weigh under 9 oz for the scope, about 4 oz IIRC for a one-piece mount. At 1X you can shoot with both eyes open just like a RDS.
Let us know how it goes.
Some people post incredible results with their rifle/ammunition combinations on the internet. You posted realistic groups given the equipment used.
With the ammunition and rifle you are using, shooting 3" groups at 100 yards would not be uncommon. With a non-match rifle and iron sights, you may (or may not) be able to shrink the groups to 2" at 100 yards with reloads tailored to your rifle. That’s good enough to win a reduced distance High Power match. Money spent on ammunition and practicing good techniques is money well spent before getting caught up in the pursuit of a tack driving rifle.
What are your goals and expectations for your rifle? What is the intended purpose of the rifle? Example: If you hit a coyote with a well placed shot, it won’t know if it’s a 1 MOA or 3 MOA rifle.
I would not complain. I personally shoot much better with an optic, even if it is only 2 or 3x mag. My eyes are crap.
That is a rack-grade barrel that is non free-floated and open sites. Nice job.