I have read all the stickies and searched and have a good sense of what this board considers quality AR manufacturers. I really want to add an AR to my collection but I have to justify it, don’t want a range toy either.
I want an AR that is more precise than my 2.5 mao SGL-31. It shoots 12 cent surplus rounds so for the AR to be justified I would want 1.5 MOA with surplus ammo, not match ammo or handloads.
I would want a 20" barrel for velocity to at least match the 5.45x39 surplus round.
I’ve seen the DPMS 20" bull barrel freefloated upper do this (shoot 1" MOA with Federal XM193AF), but obviously this is not a recommended rifle for defense duty. What I have seen from the BCM 20" has been no better than my Arsenal as far as precision.
From the recommended builders none offer this configuration, unless I am missing something.
Can someone recommend a quality AR upper that will beat the snot out of my AK that doesn’t require expensive ammo for 1.5 ish moa precision?
If you insist on a 20" upper, I’d suggest going with the BCM 20". If you’re going to shoot it from the bench, throw a TA31RCO on it, some 75’s / 77’s and call it a day…
Not sure what you mean by the BCM being on par with an AK for accuracy though. Have you ever fired the BCM?
You will not get a “guarantee” of accuracy using surplus ammo.
There is a reason why it is surplus and cheap. The round to round consitency in velocity, bullet weight, bullet concentricty, etc is just not going to be there and as such you will not get consistent impact locations on the target. The key to accuracy is repeatability. Even if you are perfect in your application of shooting fundamentals with a perfect free floated barrel you won’t get consitent results if you aren’t using consistent ammunition. The physics just aren’t there.
If you are consistently getting 2.5 MOA out of your AK with any surplus ammo, you must be very very lucky in buying surplus. So all of your shots with your AK are hitting within 2.5 inches at 100 yards using any surplus?
What scope are you using? What ammo? How many shots in your group?
A PSOP scope, I’m using the russian surplus 7n6(?) from aims surplus $120/1000. Consistant worst 2.5 MOA with 5 shots. Its very good ammo but corrosive. I believe this is about what the AR guys with 5.45 uppers report.
My friend has a BCM 20" AR and does a little better at grouping than me but not more than 1/2" better and his ammo I think is ~$350 per 1k. We chrono about the same so I don’t think I would want a 16" barrel for 5.56.
Just makes it hard to justify an AR. I’m sure when they outlaw russian ammo I’ll be singing a different tune.
Maybe BCM has plans to produce a bull barrel 20"er?
Have you ever considered that your friend can’t shoot? I know for a fact that my Noveske will shoot about 1 MOA with my Leupold Mk4 MR/T and it will shoot about 2.5" with regular ball ammo.
It has a 16" barrel. With true 5.56 ammo I am probably at around 2800 FPS. Not sure since I don’t have a chrono.
Exactly why are you so concerened about MV or barrel length? It is fact that longer barrels do not equate to accuracy. Last weekend we shot my 11.5" SBR with an ACOG and 55gr. ammo and I was able to hit a steel plate at approx. 280 yds. in a half ass modified supported position.
Agreed this is what is needed to get significant gain in accuracy over a Russian AK-74. Time to start saving 'cause my fear is the quality surplus ammo importation will be outlawed.
On the other hand the guy posted 2.5" MOA with his AR on surplus ammo, right now I get this for 13 cents a round with my Arsenal.
I guess I always had this expectation that for under a grand an AR would beat the crap out of my AK, but in reality you need either an expensive AR or expensive ammo. So right now its a bit of a catch 22 for me to invest in an AR.
The biggest benefit I see is ergonomics, I really dislike the scope position on the AK. Shooting my freinds BCM is much more natural and quicker.
If you’re shooting wolf or brown bear, it doesn’t matter how nice the barrel is, the ammo isn’t consistent enough to beat the groups you are seeing with the AK with similar ammo.
Now, if you step up from the $.20/shot wolf/brown bear/silver bear to $.45/shot Prvi Match ammo, your group size will drop to sub-moa if not for occasional flyers. It isn’t until you reload or buy the GOOD $.80/shot ammo that you get sub half-moa groups out of a good upper, extracting every bit of performance from it.
(xm193 will get 1.5" groups, which is much better than the 3"+ groups seen with wolf/brown bear… but the Prvi still fragments, making it my preferred option for that price range.)
Also, about the bull barrel… I have one. It is HEAVY. It is definitely a bench gun only. And it holds a LOT of heat, taking a while to cool down. If you don’t need to shoot long strings of ammo between cooldown periods, I’d recommend a thinner profile than the standard 1" bull. 20" of 1" thick stainless steel is heavy.
Even if it isn’t outlawed, eventually all the surplus will dry up. Alot of the stuff on the market now is from countries that have recently joined NATO and are selling off their non-NATO ammo stocks or others that have seen an opportunity to sell off old stocks of ammo for more than they paid for them and cycle in fresher ammo supplies.
When all that stuff is gone you will have to buy new production ammo, which will be more closer in price to what you have to pay for NATO spec ammo. It still probably won’t be as expensive as brass cased NATO ammo, but it will be more expensive than it is now.
As to a reason to get one (irrespective of any accuracy improvement), I can tell you from my experience, as good as you are with an AK, you will probably be better/faster with an AR. My 1st military type rifle was a Polytech AKS 762 side-folder (Which I still have) and one day I did a comparison between that rifle and a Colt 6920. The Colt won hands down when it came to practical accuracy, ease of 1st round hits, reloading speed and remedial action drills. This was with me having a good 10 years more personal experience with that AK. Do yourself a favor, set up some targets at various ranges, get 2 or 3 magazines with random ammuntion amounts & dummy rounds in them and then time yourself with both. I think you will be genuinely suprised. I was.
What exactly are your needs? You have yet to state them.
I get the feeling you want your cake and eat it. Which clearly is not the case with any firearm.
BTW the DPMS 20" Bull config doesn’t have a 5.56 chamber, meaning you’re not going to be able to shoot surplus (NATO surplus), or at least for a long period of time. You could however shoot wolf/brown bear/etc but your not going to get your magical accuracy for $.20/round.
Bingo!! To the OP;
I load all my 5.56/223 my self for range/practice I use surplus 55gr bullets I bought a few years back…Weighing these bullets gets you some interesting results…they will vary in weight by as much as 3gr either way…accuracy wise, they’ll be accurate enough to get the job done…If you’re looking for 1.5 MOA accuracy with surplus…It ain’t gonna happen…you’ll have to load your own with better bullets…The L.C. cases are fine, probably some of the best quality wise, The bullets the military uses just aren’t of very high quality. I have a target AR that has a 22" S.S. douglas bbl, freefloated, About 1" thick, jewell trigger, Burris scope, using L.C. cases, WC 844 powder (surplus powder) and 52 gr Serria’s I can shoot 10 shot groups that measure 3/4" @100yds… At 300yds it’ll do 2 3/4" for 10 shot groups.
10 shot groups…this is the gold standard for accuracy…5 shot groups mean nothing,period. If you can put 10 rounds into 1.5 or whatever size you’re looking for, then you’re doing something, But most importantly, you’re getting a real, consistent,picture of what kind of accuracy your rifle is capable of.
You’ve gotten some good advice here, I don’t have a problem with AK’s, But, I do believe the AR is a superior platform, and your fears of running out of affordable surplus ammo is’nt unfounded…Soviet surplus is going to run out one day,And I don’t think that day is too far off, and there is’nt much support for reloading them either,(reloadable cases, bullets)and not alot in the way of loading data. So, sooner or later you’re going to start paying more, much more, for ammo, At least with the AR, quality reloading componets are easily found, and reasonably priced, Also take into consideration your friend’s AR is only a sample of one, and there’s also the question of his abilitys… So, I would’nt put alot into that compairison. Anyway if you’re thinking of switching to a AR, now is the time, Never before has there been such a wide selection of high quality AR’s for reasonable prices. For what it’s worth, Buy a quality AR, and don’t look back…
Ok yes surplus ammo varies. But load it into a Rem700 and it will still be less than 1" MOA, at least decent surplus.
I guess my whole issue is a lot of folks swear buy the DPMS 20" Bull barrel freefloated upper that sells for $500 as being able to handle suprplus and shoot it very accurately.
But I don’t believe in range plinkers and I wouldn’t be comfortable with the DPMS if I were to defend my life with it for an extended period.
I just think BCM or one of the other quality AR builders should offer a similiar upper instead of all the focus on M4 and lighter builds which are all the rage but really make the AR less attractive to possible AK converts.
At this point I think I am just going to buy a scoped .308 bolt action, it exceeds in the areas where the AR&AK can’t.
I do appreciate all the input, you guys are very knowledgeable and I am sure I will be back as I feel a bit of an odd man out not owning an AR
Most surplus ammo, even decent surplus ammo, will NOT be less than 1 MOA even through a Remington 700 for all the reasons previously explained in this thread.
If you attempt to shoot Surplus 5.56 through a DPMS with a .223 chamber, you’re going to experience nothing but problems, including (but not limited to) popped primers tying up the action due to over pressure.
This was really good advice. I finally broke down and bought an M&P-15 for the $600 special a while back(got one of the last ones). Just setting it up now, but damn the ergonomics are just so superior to the AK, its hard to put in words. I mean I love the AK but if I have to carry and shoot my way thru woods and terrain the M4gery is much “handier”. And I just plain shoot it better. I was going to make it optics only but found a used YHM flipup site and am using a Magpull flipup BUIS (for weight savings.) My goal is to keep the rifle as light weight as possible, will add a micro-dot and a small LED flashlight.
