1911 vs G19 as carry gun.....

General Firearms Handguns - Semi Auto
21

Yes, please stop. 9mm FMJ is one of the worst defense rounds you can carry. You never "shoot to kill”. You shoot to stop a lethal threat. If they die, so be it. A FMJ 9mm may still kill them, but short of a solid CNS hit, it’s going to take a lot longer and that’s more time they have to work on killing you.

To the OP, with my screen name, you’d probably think the G-19 was my preferred choice for CCW. Until very recently, it was. Even in a Milt Sparks VM-II or EX, the G-19 was always uncomfortable and I had to choose my clothing carefully. I recently picked up a Colt Rail Gun for competition. As luck would have it, a well worn 1911 EX holster and Sparks 1911 IWB mag pouch came up for a paltry $50. I couldn’t pass that up, figuring it would be good for wearing to and from matches. Imagine my surprise when I found it more comfortable to wear than my G-19 in an EX, even with the spare mag IWB on the other side. Not only that, I can now use a wider selection of shirts without printing.

It works so well, I recently picked up a S&W 1911PD off this board for CCW. That way I can do extended range sessions with the Colt and slip on the clean PD when I’m done. After swapping a polymer mainspring housing, Wilson bulletproof slide stop & single side safety, and a short recoil plunger for the full length guide rod, the PD weighs 39oz loaded with nine 230gr Gold Dots vs. 33oz for the G-19 with sixteen 127gr +P+ Ranger SXT’s. A 6oz difference isn’t enough to make a difference and carried IWB, I think the 5” 1911 slide stabilizes the gun slightly better. Sure, I’d rather have sixteen 9mm +P+ rounds than nine .45’s, but the .45 is reassuring in cold weather when assailants may be wearing heavier clothing. In my case, I was often leaving the G-19 in the glove box and carrying a much more comfortable and concealable 3” Model 66 .357 mag. Far less ideal than the 1911 with 50% more capacity.

I still contend that using a 1911 for defense is best left to those who fully understand the platform and can perform most maintenance functions short of fitting a slid & frame themselves. Without that knowledge (or even with it), I’d highly recommend LAV’s 1911 operators course for anyone carrying a 1911.

22

Funkenstein,
Generally, you want to deliver the most possible energy into the badguy and stop the threat ASAP. Whether or not it kills him is an afterthought, you need to stop the threat.

A fmj round tends to over-penetrate and go straight through the attacker. This is not good for several reasons…it may hit an innocent bystander behind him, it does not provide enough force to stop him (unless you hit CNS), it gives him a chance to shoot you, and he may end up bleeding out anyway…AFTER he already stayed in the fight long enough to kill you.

The HP round opens up and stops inside the badguy (theoretically) which delivers ALL the bullets energy to his body. This does more damage to him (i.e. takes him out of the fight sooner), and is safer for all the innocent people who may be behind him.

Your theory is much more dangerous to yourself and the people around you.

ETA: glocktogo beat me to it

23

Do you still shoot your 1911’s in single stack, or did you switch all comp guns to glock too?

24

Great minds think alike. Almost scarily so in this case! :smiley:

25

Ok, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the input. I hope you saw some of my theory behind it but my theory is obviously flawed.

I hope that it will also put you at ease knowing that I only started doing this a few days ago. :happy:

26

Wrx04—I carried, was issued, or qualified on a 1911 from 1986 until 2011 in military, LE, and civilian use. Likewise, I have had a G19 available from 1990 through 2012. Both pistols have worked very well for me.

I strongly recommend that you pick one pistol type and standardize on it. Whatever pistol type you choose be sure to get 2-3 identical pistols—one to carry, one to train with, and perhaps one to serve as a spare if you can afford to do so.

Except for a stock WWII production USGI 1911 I was issued in the military, all the 1911’s I had were high quality custom pistols. The properly built and maintained 1911’s I relied on proved as reliable as my 9 mm Glocks—however the 1911’s took a lot more time, money, and effort to get there and stay that way than a Glock. A G17 carries about the same as a 1911, while a G19 is a bit more compact and a touch easier to conceal for me; both Glocks and 1911’s are relatively easy to carry when using quality holsters—for all intents and purposes they are the same thickness. Both 9 mm Glocks and quality built 1911’s are some of the most durable pistols available—it is not uncommon to reach lifespans in excess of 100,000 rounds with proper care and maintenance.

The 1911’s I have used have all been substantially more accurate than Glocks. I prefer pistols like the 1911 that have an ergonomic ambi manual safety—something not available on Glocks. Given the problems that 4th gen Glocks and post 2010 3rd gen Glocks have exhibited, custom 1911’s may prove a surer bet.

For a variety of reasons outlined below I retired my 1911’s at the beginning of 2011 and am currently qual’d on and carry 9 mm Glocks and the M&P45.

The G19 weighs less than a 1911 and the extra loaded mags are substantially lighter—as I have gotten older, my back has come to appreciate this advantage of Glocks. When I injured my strong hand a few years ago and lost its use for several months, I found out how much more effective I was using a G19 weak handed compared to a 1911. The greater magazine capacity of a G19 can be a significant advantage when facing multiple opponents; less mag changes also turn out to be easier to deal with if you loose the use of one arm/hand. Now that I am using RDS on my handguns, it turns out is a lot easier to mount an RDS on a Glock than a 1911. It is easier to slap a light onto a Glock, than a typical 1911. Glocks are substantially less expensive than a custom 1911 and I can do my own upgrades and maintenance rather than having to send the pistol off to one of the rare pistolsmiths that truly understands how to build a quality 1911 carry or duty pistol. If you have to purchase your own practice ammo, 9 mm is a whole lot cheaper, allowing you to get more practice. Finally, after having been shooting for nearly 3 decades, I find the lower recoil of 9mm to be easier on my hands and does not require as much concentration and practice to shoot as well as .45 ACP.

Note–based on my recent training results, I plan on transitioning to all 9 mm pistols in the forthcoming year, initially the 9 mm Glocks I currently have available, but as soon as possible to all M&P9’s.

Look at your specific requirements, body build, and how well you shoot each pistol–NEVER go by how a pistol “feels”, but always assess your ability with a specific pistol based on quantitative measurements of performance (scores and times over a variety of shooting drills and tests like the 3 Defoor pistol tests, 500 point aggregate, 99 drill, FAST test, etc…). Once you have done this, then I suspect you will be able to wisely choose the best pistol for your needs.

Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to carrying it. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

27

I carried a Colt Commander for a good while. One evening while walking my dog(this is an middle class/upper middle class area,gated communities, etc,) we came upon 3 guys stripping an auto they evidently stole and placed in this spot earlier. I noticed them but never broke stride and went on down the road. Long story short they came out of the bushes and approached us with bad intentions,at this point I wasn’t feeling very confident about my situation particularly with only 9 rounds and no reload. To make matters worse it was the one time I chose not to carry “cocked and locked”. My small rotty showed them his bad intentions (foaming,snarling,barking and lunging),they left not a word said.
My friend a security guard currently at a section 8 development carries a G19 I setup for him. He and another guard were involved in a shootout against a guy with a full-auto uzi, he fired 10 rounds and the other guard fired 8 rounds while under a barrage of gunfire from the perp. Neither of them hit him, he was later caught by West Palm police.
A guy I met at my local gun store looking to purchase a glock because his was “evidence” after a shootout he was involved in. He was leaving a friends house in a not so good neigborhood late at night and was approached by 2 men, one armed with a 9mm handgun the other with an AK47. He drew on them in fear for his life and emptied his G19 in their direction , he was hit by one 9mm and
one AK round. They fled and someone upstairs was watching over him. I can name one more instance I know of where it was 3 perps versus one CCP holder and his family, he came out on top killing one and injuring another while the driver fled.
All this to say I carry a G19/G26 with a spare G17 mag. Perps are usually in groups nowadays, and as such capacity and of course training are both critical.

My .02

28

The Versa Max is a great holster that I used for my 1911’s when I carried one. Its also the holster I use with my Glock 26. I did not think much about capacity until at a training I saw an officer involved shooting who was shot in the face with a .357 mag but by the grace of God the round did not kill him. He fell to the ground and opened up with his Glock. he was able to keep the shooter pinned in the car by shear volume of fire before he gave up and drove off. Had that been a 1911 he would have been out of ammo too soon. I carry my 17 on duty with +2 extenders on the mags for a total of 20 rounds on tap. Its nice to know I will probably never need to reload in a gun fight. The main reason I stopped carrying my Wilson CBQ was what DocGKR spoke of. A 1911 can be a reliable weapon but it takes maintance. I shoot quite a bit for training and in competion. I found myself wearing my Wilson out and I did not have a spare. I had a Kimber Series 1 without a light rail as a spare but that mandated me switching duty holsters. Anyway my Wilson ran great for a long time then little things started to pop up and I would fix them like the plunger tube falling off the gun, the ejector getting loose, new extractors. What would happen is I would get a malfunction and find something else that needed work. I got to where I did not trust the gun. I sent it back to Wilson at one point and paid over $600 and they did not even complete the work I asked and I ended doing some of it myself. Anyway my point is 1911’s are maintance intensive to keep the same degree of reliablity you get with a Glock. What you gain with a 1911 is a better trigger and greater accuracy. For me it was not worth it in the end. I ended up carrying the Wilson for 6 years and now I am back to Glocks.

Pat

29

If you want it to go “bang”, carry the G19.
If you want it to look pretty and start conversations when you show it to your buddies, get a nice 1911.

Owned a Wilson Tactical Supergrade and Les Baer TRS, and refuse to ever own a 1911 again. I like my firearms well-made (Baer was worse than a hi-point. Cut myself taking it down on the burrs in that thing once, even!) and not falling apart (Wilson, rear sight was shifting all over the place–twice–until they replaced it with their previous model) on me after a couple hundred rounds on the square range, or having multiple failures past the 1,000 round mark due to absurd tolerances (Baer).

30

if i was going to carry a dated steel single stack pistol with a stellar trigger it would be an HK p7 not a 1911.

the G19 may be the best CCW gun of all time.

31

Ok misconception you have there that ball will work better in the cold than JHP’s because you think the JHP’s will expand in the clothing and not go deep enough. That is FALSE. Its cold up here in Alaska too. JHP’s don’t expand in clothing in fact the penetration is increased compared to shootings with less clothing involved because the bullet expands more slowly because there is clothing material in the hollowpoint cavity slowing down the works. Using ball ammo in a defensive pistol is a poor choice except in pocket autos likethe .380 because they don’t have the power to expand and penetrate. But for 9mm and up go with a good JHP load not ball. If your pistol will not function with JHP bullets get a new pistol.
Pat

32

I feel like I’ve read this thread many, many times before…

I carry a Glock 19. I don’t really think I need to elaborate further as to why. All good info above.

Re: 9mm “stopping power,” and to the dude who carries FMJ at the top of his mag : that’s dumb. There is no mystical “energy,” either, outside of maybe your yoga classes. There is the kinetic energy of the round that allows it to move from your chamber to the BG’s thoracic cavity - there is yet further conversion of potential energy into kinetic energy as the JHP decelerates inside your BG’s pleural cavity - and there is the kinetic energy of the blood quickly evacuating from the BG’s body. But this mysterious “Gun Chi” or “stopping power Psy-energy” I keep hearing about does NOT exist.

Bullets don’t “dump energy.” They put holes in things and decelerate and expand as they do. The ones that expand the most as they decelerate will do the most damage to anatomical structures like vasculature and blood bearing organs. Death and incapacitation come from euvolemia (depletion of the BG’s blood) or disruption of the central nervous system, by hitting the spine or brain. There is no magic energy ball that goes with your bullet as it travels down range. It is simply another property of the cartridge, which is about as important as the material of the projectile, its weight in grains and what gun it was fired from (Not Very.) As long as the bullet can penetrate 12-14" of ballisic gelatin (thats what BG stands for of course!) and properly expand through a variety of intermediates then it will contribute to the two things that actually kill people - blood loss and destruction of the CNS.

33

I believe you misunderstood me, I only carry Hornady 230gr XTP’s in my 1911 when it is not on the range. I can’t afford to shoot jhp’s at the range all day, so I practice with 230gr ball ammo. I have roughly ~2500 rounds of fmj, and ~250 jhp’s through it. I understand the clothing/expansion issue, and carry only jhp’s in my pistols when carrying. Gold dot 115gr +p for 9mm and Hornady XTP 230 gr for .45.

34

Shokr21: Why are you picking two of the worst performing JHP loads for your pistols? There are fare better options than Gold Dot 115 gr +P and XTP 230 gr…you might check here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

35

Concur, though I still carry a 1911.

AC

36

I’ve tried to go all Glock, but I just can’t do it.

I freekin’ LIKE 1911s and I enjoy shooting 'em a lot, so I flip flop around between a Glock 19 and a 1911 in competition. I don’t have much trouble making the transition.

I decided to go all Glock back in October, but I’m back on a 1911 kick again…

37

This is a once a week thing here, now, Chief. And I, too, still carry a 1911. I just plain shoot it better than the Glock.

Regardless, as I’ve said before on these G19 vs 1911 threads…Pick what works best for you and shut the fuck up about it.

Honor First

H

38

I prefer the Glock 19.

I carried a 1911 off and on for a while, about 20 years ago. It’s a slim gun that carries well for it’s weight. I never owned an aluminum framed 1911.

But the Glock 19 has so many advantages that I’ve no intention of going back.

I’ve carried a Glock 19 off-duty since about 1999 or so.

The gun feels great in my hand.

It has what to me is the perfect size combination of concealability and shootability. I can conceal it all four seasons, to include the muggy summers found in SW Ohio.

It is accurate enough for it’s intended task. While I do own a more accurate 1911, the accuracy of my Glock 19 is sufficient. What little the Glock 19 may give up in mechanical accuracy to a well built 1911 is not enough for me to be concerned about.

It can take more abuse and neglect. Yes we all should take care of our equipment. But sometimes things happen. My Glock has gotten dunked for about an hour during a canoe mishap. Worn during vacations in August where the humidity and sweating caused condensation to form inside of the magwell, and the magazine body was wet. Dust, dirt, grime, lint, can form in the gun when carried concealed. When my kids were young and I was a newer officer going to court when I was supposed to be sleeping, well there’s only 24 hours in a day. Sometimes you might not get a chance to clean that gun as often as you would like to. My Glock could be counted on to perform.

I’ll always be fond of a well made 1911, and will continue to own one. Just like my fondness for a 4" S&W 686 revolver. But neither of these will ever replace my Glock 19 as a carry gun.

With that said, if someone carries a 1911, can shoot it effectively and is satisfied with their choice, God bless and have at it. I’m not about to argue the point. As others have posted, experiment to find what works best for you, then train your ass off to learn how to get the most out of what you picked. There is no perfect gun.

39

I’m kind of surprised I don’t whole-heatedly agree with your point, but one thing came to mind when I read it. On deployment, especially where SOF guys go, I’d want nothing but the Glock. Reliability and maintenance make it a massively better decision over a 1911. However, for an SRT or SWAT (and especially civvy Joe Snuffy), where the elements are usually much less demanding and parts and knowledge is much more readily available, a 1911 seems like a good option. Plus CAG and Group shoot so damn much that they’re good at anything. Joe civvy would probably benefit much more from the ergonomics of the 1911 - of course that’s based on the shooter himself, and OP said he was good with both. Personally, I can shoot a 1911 much better than my Glock, for now.

40

Amen…