I’m looking for insight and help on a very specific 1911 configuration, and was hoping you guys could point me in the right direction. Basically, I’m looking to buy/build a 1911 with the following characteristics:
The purpose of this gun would be for CCW, IDPA, range, and suppressed shooting. I’ve looked at Wilson Combat, Springfield Armory, Nighthawk, and STI. To this point, STI offers as close to this configuration as I’ve found with their Tactical SS 4.0 http://www.stiguns.com/the-sti-tactical-ss-4/
That being said, I have no experience with STI. I trust Springfield Armory from personal experience with their 1911’s, and I trust Wilson Combat for their amazing reputation…but I’m not sure either of them would make this specific custom configuration. Also, am I setting myself up for a huge reliability headache with a Suppressed, Commander-length, 9mm 1911 in the first place?
Not sure that I really understand the premise behind the gun to be perfectly honest with you; that said, I would take this project directly to our own “Mr. Smith” (Joe Barnsfather) at www.superiorfirearmsllc.com.
Joe probably knows the ins-and-outs of the STI guns better than anyone else out there, and strikes me as one of the few guys that might be willing to even attempt to build something like this. Almost definitely your guy.
I need to look over the IDPA guidelines again…but is it the barrel you think would be a no-go, or the full-length rail?
Good looking 2011 by the way. I did actually shoot one of those in .40 for a few rouds a year back, and really liked it…but I’ve always been partial to a steel single-stack frame.
The barrel will definitely be a no-go, even in factory configuration, as its 4.26" bull barrel (IIRC, its .06" too long) I’m not sure on the full length rail.
AC, Thank you very much for the recommendation to look at Joe of superior firearms…I’ll definitely see what kind of information and insight they can provide on the 9mm guns.
As for my criteria…well, I think that the only things that are different from what a lot of manufacturers offer already is the full-length rail and threaded barrel in 9mm. I only shoot 9mm now days, and want to be able to use it with my 9mm suppressor. The length of the rail is mostly a desire of personal aesthetics, although I do like having a little extra weight out in that part of the gun. I want the commander length because it would be pretty much the same size as the Hk P30 with threaded barrel that I carry now. I know from carrying the P30, that I don’t want a gun with any more length to the muzzle than it has with the threaded barrel (about 4.5")
Not Permitted:
8.2.3.2.21. Heavy or cone style barrels on firearms with barrel lengths of 4.25” or less.
8.2.2.3.1. Steel dust covers and rails over 3.25” (as measured from the rear of the slide stop pin to the most forward portion of the dust cover or rail) are not permitted.
Allowed Modifications
8.2.2.3.2. Removal of material from the exterior of the slide other than front cocking serrations, tri-top, engraving, carry melts, and high power cuts.
Just a quick purusing of the IDPA Rules, the above two items in ESP will disqualify the pistol. To get around it, a standard barrel and bushing I believe or a second fitted barrel specifically for supressor play. As far as a full length dust cover, your only option there is to go with the standard railed frame permitting it meets the 3.25" rule.
As far as mechanics, you have 4 contributing factors that need to be overcome. 9mm (Recoiling mass speed), a cone shaped barrel deleting a barrel bushing (original design) and adding operating mass, and a 4.25" barrel leaving a shorter operating window. Some things can be countered such as operating mass by slide lightening (Tri cut top, front cocking serrations, high power cuts and sight cuts), a standard barrel and bushing to reduce operating mass ect. There is no way around the full length rail as I see it.
My suggestion would be to seek out and talk with smiths who have experiance in short barrelled sub-caliber suppressed 1911 builds. You might be able to get away with the fitting of an additional threaded barrel on a standard production pistol. My understanding is that the cycling with the added mass of the supressor needs to be taken into account in the set up and parts choices to get reliability and longevity. Sure you could probably install a drop in barrel with a threaded end for a supressor and go have fun. The real question is how many rounds will you get out of it if not properly fit and clearanced before it self destructs ruining the barrel or slide.
I personally would never discard STI as an option when looking for a 9mm 1911 - especially the higher end models. My only gripe is how ugly they can look.
Best bet would be AC’s advise, talk to a smith that can build it for you.
MikeC,
I fully understand spec’ing out a dream gun…we build those everyday. But, I really think you need to think about at least 2 1911’s to cover the needs you have spec’t out. YMMV.
listen to Chiefs suggestion and get ahold of Joe at superior firearms. he set up a 5 inch tactical 2011 for me that has run like a champ in the 2 classes (4 days) I have used it in. they are a greatshooting gun. the only downside to them are the costs of the mags.
my bad, I looked at the pic you posted and thought he was looking for a 2011. still if he is gonna go with a 9mm 1911 why not get the mag capacity to go with it LOL. that was my reasoning. 20 rounds sure is nice. my comment concerning the mags was imo for the price you have to pay for them they can be pretty hit and miss. it surprises me somewhat considering how good there pistols are.
To be honest, IDPA compatibility is not a deal breaker for me. I really do that for fun and practice, rather than competition. My local ranges actually aren’t all that strict on the rules regarding the pistols used as long as it’s concealable, safe, and not using lasers, flashlights, or red-dots. That being for better or worse…they’re pretty casual about it, and would probably let me participate.
So IDPA rules aside, the primary question at hand is whether I can achieve the reliability out of this 1911 appropriate for a CCW? The way I’m seeing it now is that STI and Wilson Combat make what seem to be well regarded Commander size 9mm guns, so the only functional difference I’m aware of in what they make vs. what I want, is the threaded barrel for suppressed shooting. Would running a suppressor on an otherwise well-functioning Wilson or STI Commander make reliability go all to hell? I run an AAC Tirant 9mm can which has a Neilson-style piston.
I also realize there are drawbacks at times when building “do-it-all” kind of guns…rifle, pistol, or otherwise…but I’m not the kind of person who likes having a completely separate gun “just so I can run a suppressor”…or “just for any other reason.” I won’t buy a gun that I wouldn’t be willing to carry daily…and if I’m carrying a pistol daily…I want that pistol to be the one I take classes with, shoot IDPA with, and shoot every time I go to the range or want to plink with.
Most hardcore 1911 users will advise to stick with 4.25" barrels or longer. I don’t think the 4" Wilson or STI offerings would be a deal breaker for me though. They both have great reputations for building quality guns and they both use full size frames.
No one makes a perfect 1911 9mm for what I need. I’d like to have a round butt, railed alloy frame with thin grips and a 4.25" slide for my wife as a house gun. She has small hands and some arthritis. With the smaller grip, lighter weight, short light trigger pull and a mounted light, I’d feel a lot more confident in her ability to repel a home invader. She handles her Browning Buckmark quite well, but .22LR is not my idea of a good HD gun.
What you and the original poster want is a Smith & Wesson M&P or a Walther PPQ. Both of those have grips equal to or maybe even a hair slightly smaller than a 1911 grip. What both of those guns offer is reliability for the caliber. The 9mm in 1911 is an enthusiast gun not one for a lady to try to sort out at 3 am. Do a search on the subject of 9mm 1911 and you’ll find lots of write ups on the advantages and disadvantages. I’ve written a lengthy one. Speaking from experience, yes I love my 9mm Caspian commander with titanium bobtail grip. But it’s a lot of work to keep it running properly.
I was attached by a zombie hard drive, took several 9mm 115 gr. ball rounds to put it down.
The setup that you want sounds pretty much like the setup Costa ran, but he used a 2011 Tac 4.0. The suppressor that he used was the TiRant and showed no issues when he ran it.
While I love a 1911, own a few, and can appreciate the history and ergonomics, it is a boutique weapons system at this stage of it’s life cycle. While it is a joy to shoot when it is running properly, it was simply not designed to work with the modern ammunition you are going to want your wife to use. That is an undisputed fact. And no matter how much you widen and polish the throat of one, it is still a Chevelle trying to run a road course. While people can do it, it has taken a lot of errors, and even more money. It is also significantly harder to use. It is a professional’s weapon, from the takedown, to the operation, trigger management, safety(s), and malfunction correction drills, this is not a weapon I would hand a female shooter with arthritis. When you couple that with the fact that you are requesting one in a smaller caliber that it definitely wasn’t designed to use, you are asking for trouble.
I am an accomplished IDPA AND USPSA shooter. I have seen many shooters become unbelievably successful in competition shooting every STI variant imaginable- and destroyed me. And people do use them in training. But Chris Costa has an unbelievable amount of money and resources available to him. He has also never been in a gunfight in his life- not one. And the range that you have all the time in the world to prepare for and lube and clean is a far cry from the bedside gun that hasn’t been touched in three months, all of the lube has dripped to the side it lays on, and it has shifted positions since the last time you open and closed the door.
Given the choice, I would under no circumstances take a 1911 into a gunfight I could prepare for. I definitely would not hand my wife one suppressed and in 9mm and ask her to defend herself with it when there are a hundred more options that are significantly more reliable, easier to use, and with greater capacity.
