I just recently shot the Ozark 3 Gun Championship in Missouri($300,000 prize table) , which was my first big match. It was a natural terrain match and a helluva good time BTW. I outperformed my expectations, but realized I still have a lot to learn about the sport. I shot a 16" carbine length rifle and for the most part shot well, I hit the 400m target, but FTN the 500m. Most shots with the rifle were from 150-250m, which leads to this question…I want to build a rifle for 3 gun matches but I can not decide if an 18" is really needed…I’ve heard both sides, so I am now reffering this question…I’m leaning towards a BCM or Noveske upper…Any help would be great…
There is really no down side to a 18" rifle length gas system. You can build a very soft shooting rifle with a adjustable gas block, lightened BCG and buffer. The rifle will transition as quickly as a 16". But if you can’t hit it with a 16" barrel, then a 18" will not make the difference. Knowing your dope is crucial
Im running a 16in BCM SS410 Midlength upper. Works very well for me. Had 2nd fastest time on the 300 yard targets last 3gun I shot, guy who beat me was using a 18in OPEN gun and only beat me by .01secs, Im running Tac Ops with a Burris XTR 1-4x24.
If you look at the Noveske shooting team 2 are using 17" guns and Rob is using a 16". I “think” Jansen said he was going to try out a 16" over the 17. Personally the NST from Noveske would be where I would start with a dedicated 3gun setup. Look at they’re videos. They can shoot fast, but they definitely can shoot long!
But I agree, 18in is, in my opinion, not needed for the distances you will typically shoot in a 3gun match. A good 16in Barrel from BCM, Noveske (ie BCM’s SS410 line of barrels or Noveske’s Stainless Steel barrels) will suit your needs.
For a 3gun dedicated AR, I would go with 18" for the slightly higher velocity over a 16". Of course, barrel length itself has nothing to do with accuracy.
Some 55 grn ammo out of a 16" barrel will not have enough velocity to meet the power floor for minor PF. So, chrono your ammo to be sure. It’s not like you are going to see a chrono stage at a major 3g match like you will at major pistol matches, but you never know.
Also, a little more velocity can help with reactive steel, in that the rounds hit a little harder and have more effect on target, making it easier for you or the RO to see hits.
If you’re going to use 69s, 75s, 77s, etc you can overcome the lower velocity out of the 16" barrel, but that can get expensive. If you use 2 different loads, you’ll want to know how this affects your holdovers. I zeroed a TA-11 for the 69s, which I used for steel at distance, and then I used 55 grn ball for paper targets. Was satisfied with the results.
Geez…now I’m confused…I’ve watched about every Noveske video I can find and got to watch Rob shoot in person (very impressive)…I think this topic is based again on who is asked…I am more comfortable shooting a 16" platform rifle and I’m about 90% certain I am going to go with a Noveske…However most guys I see shoot 18" guns…You guys are great on here BTW…Knowledge is power and I’m feeling more powerful everyday…
I have been using a 14.5 inch Noveske but I am moving to a 18 inch stainless rogue hunter from Noveske. I kept getting told by people at Brian Enos that 18 was the way to go so I am going to give it a try.
Pat
If it is going to be a game gun then you can get the adjustable gas block, the low mass operating system and the brake. Get the gas tuned in and rock and roll. Such a manageable system I can see my hits and misses and correct.
That dog will hunt, or at least you can’t blame the dog when you don’t do well.
You can certainly shoot 3gun w/ a 16" bbl., as long as you understand the pros and cons.
I shoot 3gun and rifle only matches. I run a JP CTR02 18", but started w/a JP15 20" (which I shot for 4 years and about 8K rnds). I had bought a 16" JP upper to try when I had the 20" upper thinking I’d like a short upper for matches with close targets. I didn’t care for it (to light, harsher recoil). In talking with John at JP, you start to lose significant velocity with the 16" guns, which I confirmed. As I tend to shoot mostly 55gr bullets, I didn’t want to give up to much velocity. That said, as long as you know your dope for targets beyond 300 (small percentage of match targets) you can certainly hit them w/a 16" bbl.
I like the feel of the rifle length gas system. Combined w/the adj gas block, lightened stainless carrier and JP Comp, the control / softness / flat shooting of the 18" and 20" uppers are amazing. They shoot 55’s as well as 75 or 77’s. Accuracy and reliability are awesome. Balance and weight of the upper is perfect due to the bbl profile JP uses. The 16" bbl shines on run and gun stages where your pushing the gun in ad out of ports, moving down halls, etc. I decided to split the difference and go w/a 18’’ bbl as it was the best compromise.
I’ve had Larue 16", 18", and 20" uppers as well as an 18" upper with a woa bbl. I run a 16" Colt at work and none of them felt as good to shoot as the JP for 3gun. YMMV. You can order an 18" bbl w/ adj. gas block and comp for your rifle. You can also order a lightened carrier if you want the whole system.
Most of the top 3 gunners gernerally shoot full sized ARs with 20 in barrels although some use 18 inchers. A couple have gone to the 17 or even 16 in guns but the trend is still to utilize guns with the full length gas system as they are softer to shooter (i.e. less gun movement).
Taran Butler uses a shorter barrel which fits his shooting style (he shoots the AR like a big Open pistol). Rob Romero runs a shorter barrel too. Tony Holmes has monkeyed with a 16 in gun but I don’t know what his final opinion was. But that is a minority group.
I like the 18 for a Tac Scope or Open gun as it gets you the rifle length gas system with at least the perception of more manueverability than a 20 in. That being said, I don’t shoot an 18 any better than I do a 20.
For iron sights, a 20 with extended sight radius is defintely the way to go.
Like already stated above, max distance for your typical matches may be your deciding factor on barrel length, but even then, a 16" barrel w/good ammo and knowing your drops, can be competative. I have a sabre barreled 16" middy, a sabre barreled 18" middy and a 18" douglass barreled rifle gas and really can’t tell that much diff between them (recoil impulse) as long as you run a good comp (SJC Titan). Longest shot I’ve taken was at Ft. Benning @ 425 yds and made my hits w/a 16" but the 18" may get you a little more velocity and shoot slightly flatter. At 200-300 yds, my 16"'s and 18"s shoot identically. I do use 75 gr ammo on anything outside of 100 yds and 55 gr for anything inside 100 yds. Just zero for long range and know your drops above all else and make sure you get a good comp/muzzle brake and trigger. Any SS Sabre, BCM or Noveske barrel will shoot better than you could for all intensive purposes.
I’ve done 3 target drills with 14.5" carbine, 16" midlength and 18 rifle length. The 18" rifles (which were a JP and a Firebird with a WOA barrel) transition just a well as the shorter rifles. The 16" shot well, but was not as smooth as the 18" which both had adjustable gas blocks and lightened carriers. the 14.5" (remsport barrel) was so over gassed that it was absolutely brutal to shoot, and it eventually ate through an adjustable gas block. Lighter is not always better close in. Try each and see what works for you
I think I’m going to give Noveske the nod and go
with an 18" RH upper with an sjc Titan . I really like the BCM ss 410 too…
I’m stepping out out of my (16") comfort zone and I’m way
stoked about it…you guys are great, I really appreciate it…
I’ll chime in on this one as I had the same question earlier this year when I was looking getting a few new rifles. I experimented with a few custom uppers, 16" middy’s and 18" rifle length. 18" rifle definitely shoots softer and with the correct barrel profile can be lighter than most shorter guns. When all was said and done from a practical perspective and to quote Mike Voigt “it really doesn’t matter.” I ended up going with a Noveske fluted 18" rifle length barrel with a long PRI tube, PRI brake, Young bolt carrier, and a Trijicon TR-24. The gun is super light, extremely accurate, and shoots very soft.
