“A viral video showing soldiers conducting room-clearing training is being called hot garbage, appalling, and a “live-fire Army edition of 1,000 ways to die in a shoot house,” and it’s easy to see why: It’s a complete f***ing tactical trainwreck.”
Man, that’s some seriously poor muzzle disciple…everyone gets shot by their own guys. I’m no expert, but are you supposed to just walk/run into the middle of a room where there might be hostiles itching to light you up?
They are taking HUGE amounts of shit for this; this has gone beyond just a viral video and gone to serious talks about training shortcomings, as well as tearing 10th Mt. leadership for not keeping their guys properly disciplined and safe.
It was all kind of meh, till I realized they were slinging lead… holy crap. That wasn’t a first run. Someone trained them that way…
Whichever NCO/OIC certified those idiots for live (after several blank fire iterations, right?!?!) should have HIS ass handed to him in some monumental way.
Holy **** that was cringe-worthy.
He gets to sit in the hostage chair during the next dynamic training exercise. I know there has to be chain of command in these situations, but my favorite live fire environment is the “everyone is a RSO” environment and “If you SEE something STOP something.” Even instructors goof from time to time and if everyone is watching for even the small things…then the really big ones aren’t allowed to exist.
People think as you become MORE special forces and MORE swat that things become more like a action video game and “safety is for all those sucks who need it”, the reality is those guys are special because they can do safe handling at high speeds and during dynamic and fluid situations.
I’ve seen them shoot and they run trigger / muzzle discipline at a level that has to be seen to be believed.
What exactly were the safety officers doing while watching this? I mean I assume there were grown-ups around somewhere.
I get that there might be a quick or partial sweep in a tight place (not that’s it’s ok), but when you’re just holding on your own man…that’s not something you critique later, that has to be corrected on the spot. Immediately.
Sent from 80ms in the future
The 10th Mountain Command Sergeant Major came out and owned it and said it is not the way, will not be the way and is being fixed.
https://mobile.twitter.com/climbtoglory7/status/1363998442884919296
Thank God. 10th Mountain used to command enormous respect after Mogadishu and they almost squandered it in a day.
I can see that being used as a “how not to” training video for everyone else.
It’s also a lesson in how to deal with social media catastrophe. He owned it, did not down play it at all and is going right after it. Many organizations could learn quite a bit from that.
Whatever happened to tossing a couple of frags through the door/window, wait for them to go off, and then spray the entire room with automatic fire? My father fought in Hue City and said that is exactly how it was done then. But I guess they didn’t watch SWAT movies and play COD back then either and weren’t trying to rescue any hostages.
That was what was done “back in the day” It was actually in the SMART book(that method took into account concrete and stone structures) Obviously, we know there are other obstacles to work with and tactics always evolve, especially with amount of work that our boys have been doing. And yes, wtf ref video
they don’t do this in conventional Infantry units, and shouldn’t. Hostage rescue isn’t a mission for them, except by accident, or in support of. Maybe some crazy circumstance. Either way, if I were in charge of conventional infantry, I would not sign off on the sort of liability that comes with having a live human in a live shoothouse, even if everyone else is cool with it. The risk is extreme, and we’re talking about dudes that need a crawl walk run workup for every shoothouse. Walk throughs, blanks, live. Think about that for a second. They essentially have to memorize a structure before being signed off to go live.
I agree that that is a positive thing, and I hope more positive things will come of this. I’ll be very interested to find out how they arrived at this point, how widespread the problem is, and how they solve it. Hopefully they solve it for real instead of shutting them out of the MOUT site. I think the CSM plans on solving it for real, though.
Wut? Clearing structures with rifles instead of frags is used for preservation of life and equipment, and collection of intel. Using frags routinely for room clearing is tactically stupid and incredibly unsafe; I don’t care who did it back in Nam. And they are heavy; I’m certainly not carrying a pile of them just to chuck’m indiscriminately and probably end up wounding one or more of my own dudes.
I’m not working with anyone that does that, ever, for any reason. Not as a shooter, and certainly not as a medic.
By the way, grenades designed to produce casualties fall into two categories, based on intended use: offensive and defensive. The M67 fragmentation grenade is designed to be used from behind cover, and is best used for defending, because the defender dictates the available cover in a deliberately set up position. The Mk3 grenade, hand, offensive, aka concussion grenade does not have a casing designed to produce fragmentation, although missiles from the ground are the expectation. It produces more overpressure than a M67 and 10/10 is the better choice for a indiscriminate casualty-producing device in MOUT because of reduced concern about wall penetration. They are much more effective indoors than out for producing casualties, which very slightly mitigates the risk if (when) it gets bounced or kicked back. In my opinion, it is a better choice to carry in general, and I always carried one of those and a couple mini-frags. Of course, most units don’t seem to know offensive grenades exists, and might even confuse them with flashbangs or other diversion devices.
When I was in that was still a way if you know with full certainty the only occupants were booger-eaters. And it works…until that grenade hits something and comes rolling back out of the door. But if there is just 1% that there is not a hostile/combatant, then room clearing it is.
Given the current political situation and the increasing likelihood of the US military being sent against Americans I find the fact that this type of training is taking place troubling. But I suspect the ROE’s for deplorables will revert back to the grenade sweep with full auto method anyway.
Before I watched the video I thought “Oh God I hope this isn’t another deal where the video is out of context of the training and now all the youtube safety nazis that have never trained are going crazy…” Cause 90% of the time that’s what it is.
THIS IS NOT.
Holy frickin frejoles!
“Break up!” seems to not be taught?
“#1 man is always right” - or is he? WTFF over?
No sound on the video so hoping it was UTM but having been shot a time or seventy with UTM at close range, that’s not fun either. Blue on blue is real.
If nothing else this video should be a wake up call to those that think they are going to throw together an ad hoc group of neighbors or guys they know that have ARs and “handle things” - blue on blue is real.
Look up Linda Norgrove.
Every war/conflict we’ve been in, every single one, has had urban operations and building clearing. It is a necessary skill set. Why would you find it troubling?
https://maxvelocitytactical.com/tactical-classes/h-e-a-t-cqb/
This is the way…
I’ve done a ton of CQB training over the last 3 decades, this is the best class for working with others in a CQB setting. I’ve done 4 or 5 iterations of it and will do it again as time permits.
WTF does training for urban operations have to do with anything political? Its been a thing for many years. Enter and Clear a Room, and the required movements to get to that point, are natural extensions of other Battle Drills, which are the basic elements of surviving contact with the enemy. See also: Enter and Clear a Trench, Squad Attack, RTC, etc.
In some circles, combat in “Megacities” is the future of ground combat, so its not something the Army is just going to let go of.