I am interested in getting a .400 cal auto. I am intrigued by the 10mm. However, realistically, I will not be using it for hunting, nor for LE, nor for a woods gun. I will be using it for a range gun and having “fun” and perhaps CCW. Understanding that the 10mm’s best performance is with a full load 200gr round, what would I (for my purposes) be getting with a 10mm that a .40S&W would not give me, other than the “novelty” of having a 10mm? Cost of 10mm ammunition is not really a hindrance. However, if I will basically be using 10mm loads which are comparable to .40S&W loads, there is no point in a 10mm for my purposes, right? Thank you for your input.
There are quite a few good 10mm pistols out ther right now. Glock 20, 29 will always be popular, the EAA Witness has mixed results but makes a lot of options, but I love the 1911 guns in this caliber. You have Kimber offering 2 models (target and Eclipse) and Dan Wesson and Colt making guns. Smith still has used ones in the 10-series that are tanks.
I like several 10mm loads that are fun to shoot, extremely accurate and shoot very flat.
For plinking you have the Blazer 200 grain and the UMC 180 grain factory loads. I also really like Georgia Arms 180 FMJ and it is economical, along with Underwood (a new company) making practice loads.
Hornady has a 155,180,and 200 XTP and Winchester still has 175 Silvertips.
I like the Double Tap and Underwood loads of the 135 grain HP at blazing speeds for home defense
the 155 Gold Dot from Georgia Arms and Underwood at blazing speeds are bonded hunting and defense loads
and the heavier HP’s from Hornady and Double Tap are nice hunting loads
The 10mm is a very accurate versatile round-you can use it for what ever you want
People who purchase a 10mm pistol need to understand that they are buying a compromise gun. While it is capable of duty performance, hunting small to medium game, target shooting, etc., there are much better choices to accomplish each of these individual tasks. For example, the 40SW in factory loading accomplishes everything the 10mm does for duty uses in a more compact package. On the other hand, I’d much rather have a 44 mag if facing a mountain lion, bear, or even a pissed-off buck.
Furthermore, those who purchase full-power 10mm ammo using bullets designed for 40SW velocities from companies like DoubleTab are buying ballistic snake oil. There are zero independent tests to validate the duty performance of these rounds, and there will probably never be any since no major LE agency is interested in boutique ammo companies. I’d love a 200 grain projectile driven at a modest 1100 fps, that reliably expands beyond .70", and penetrates 16-20" after all common barriers. Alas, that round has not been invented and I don’t think that any existing .40 caliber bullet will do that - no matter what velocity is used.
Thus, I use my Glock 20 under the specific situation where I’m backpacking on the East Coast or Pacific NW and the predators are generally medium sized (and just as likely to be 2 legged). I choose this weapon due to training consistency with my G19 that is used for daily carry around town. I would take a much more substantial caliber when in Alaska, Africa, or any situation where the predator spectrum shifts towards larger animals. Furthermore, I stick to factory ammunition in 10mm like the Hornady 180 or 200 grain XTP that favors a hunting application but still offers marginal defensive performance (~25" penetration / .55" expansion in denim covered gel). While this round may slightly over-penetrate / under-expand, this tradeoff is acceptable in a woodland environment where downrange hazards are uncommon.
It is, and many of these very hot 10mm loads can induce fails-to-feed issues in the 10 due to excessive slide velocity, very similar to what one can commonly see in the .40s when a light is attached.
You will get a little bit better penetration ability with the 10mm over the .40S&W, but not a huge difference. Expansion will be pretty much identical between the two. The only reason I would use 10mm would be for better animal protection, but as a defensive cartridge it is slower in follow up shots.
Given the calibers that you already have, I don’t see much reason to venture into the .40/10mm caliber. I use primarily .40 since I’m in Federal service and I shoot what I train with, but if the option were there for me I’d probably go back to 9mm. It’s cheaper to train with in large volumes, and easier to shoot. The 9mm also allows for smaller, lighter, and easier to operate pistols than the .40 with better long term durability.
I have always thought the concept of using 10mm as a submachine gun cartridge was viable. I know that HK made an MP-5 variant with a straight magazine.
I come by this premise from no particular expertise, just the reasoning that the elongated SMG barrel might provide the opportunity to wring out some pretty impressive velocities and increase the likelihood of reliable expansion.
Then again with modern ammo advances, 9mm is certainly an improved performer that provides negligible recoil in a SMG.
I have a Glock 29 SF, using factory Hornady 155 gr. XTP it averaged 1,278 fps / 562# KE
Calculated (objective) and felt (subjective) recoil about equal to a Glock 30 shooting Ranger T 230 gr.
Loaded with Gold Dot 155 gr. my G27 and G23 produced 442# and 472# of KE
My 29 SF with a “average” full power 10mm load produces 21% - 16% more KE (power) than a “comparable” size Glock loaded with a “hot” 40 S&W.
Worth it? …Subjective, or is it objective?
OK, but how does your 155 grain XTP perform against common barriers in 10% ballistic gel? Does it penetrate 12-20" and expand to at least 0.65"? Those are trick questions because there is a paucity of independent tests of the XTP line of 10mm ammunition. The few tests that are out there suggest that the XTP over-penetrates and under-expands across the .40 grain weights. Take this 200 grain 10mm XTP loading as an example (the only 10mm XTP with actual denim data):
You will see that this 200 grain XTP over penetrates even bare gel by 1 inch and denim by 4 inches, yet fails to make it past .60" of expanded diameter. Now, contrast this with the typical results from 180 grain Ranger T coming out of your Glock 23:
40SW Win Ranger T |180@ 943, 24.2 mv, 355 E|BR 13.6", 0.68", 4.94cu|CL 14.6", 0.70", 5.62cu|avg 5.28, 4.86 re, 1.09
Notice that you get better penetration, expansion, and wound volumes with the 180 grain .40SW load; you also get about 35% less recoil energy (the second to last listing as re) with the 40SW.
Now, I’m not sure if Hornady uses the same bullet for their 155 grain .40SW and 10mm load, but there is a really good chance that they do. Assuming this is true, here is the data for their 155 grain XTP .40 SW load:
Notice that it gets hammered by the other loading in .40SW across the board. Thus, The only way that you can rationalize a 155 grain load in a 10mm is to ASSUME that the extra velocity will improve expansion and penetration. However, do you really think that it will get it past a better designed .40SW bullets that accomplish excellent performance with comparatively mild recoil energy?
Given this data, and the lack of vetting of the 10mm XTP load against common barriers, I maintain my position that the 10mm in a Glock pistol is a compromise round/weapon that is best suited for defending yourself against medium sized 4-legged critters (black bear, boar, mtn lion, mule deer, wolf, etc.) in a woodland setting. To do this it needs heavier bullet weights in the 180-200 grain class. Will it sufficiently wound a 2-legged critter at lighter weights such as 155-165 grains? Sure, but the 40SW already does a better job at that given the current state of bullet technology.
OP, given what you’ve written, get an M&P40 and don’t look back. If you’re going to power it down to .40 performance, whats the point? Do a cost benefit analysis between 40 and 10mm, weighed against your proposed usage. You’ll see the difference and hopefully, see the light of reason. The 10mm, while a great round, is too cost prohibitive for the average user. As others have said, a .44 Mag, would be my backpack gun if in bear country. If allowed, a shotty with slugs or a 7.62 rifle would be my preferred choice.
I agree. To clarify my previous posts I want to point out that the 10mm Glock is best for DEFENDING yourself at close range against medium animals - not hunting them. Something larger than .40 caliber (or rifle) should be used for hunting black bear, mule deer, or mnt lions so that a humane kill can be made. On the other hand, a Glock 20 with a Surefire X300 in a RCS Phantom is what rides on my right side when backpacking in the lower 48 States. It is loaded with 15+1 of Hornady 200 grain XTP; there is another 30 rounds on my left side. This is a lightweight, concealable, rapidly deployable, and adequately powerful packaged to defend myself against most 4-legged predators (mainly mtn lions, wolves and bears) in the US and the occasional exotic 2-legged variety. It is also very similar to my urban carry rig that uses the Glock platform in calibers (9mm, 40SW, 45 ACP) optimized for human targets so that my training is consistent.
I shot the 10mm 155 gr. Hornady XTP into water filled gallon jugs, it made a dent on the back of the 4th jug and expanded evenly to .68
I’ve put ~ 300 of the Hornady 155 gr. XTPs through my 29 SF and nothing else, I’ll stick with them (for now) since they have proven reliable in my pistol and that’s all the 10mm I’ve got.
Then use a bullet that takes advantage of the 10’s potential. I took my 20 out the other day with some 180 grain FMJ’s and Gold dots. Velocity was 1350 fps. The FMJ’s will definately penetrate more than a 180 grain fmj from the 40 at 950 fps. Depends on what your mission is. If you need or want deeper penetration for non human applications or for barrier penetration the 10mm can be loaded to do more than the .40sw can. Good bullet choices for the 10mm are the 180 and 200 grain XTP’s. I am seriously considering making the Glock 20 my woods gun over my 5 shot Bowen Ruger Red Hawk. For duty I carry a Glock 17 and off duty I carry a 19.
Anyway sorry for the thread drift. For the OP’s purposes I would say skip the .40 and get a good 9mm.
Pat
As long as you understand that the performance in water jugs has very little correlation with performance in tissue (especially if barriers are a factor). Basically, the XTP is one of the weakest performers when it comes to non-hunting applications; I’d be reluctant to expect the extra velocity in 10mm to overcome the deficiency in the bullet design.
Agreed. A 9mm or 40SW is a much better choice for routine police duty or CCW uses. The extra potential afforded by the 10mm is only significant for hunting applications given the current state of bullet technology. The 200 grain XTP over-penetrates for optimal duty/CCW use, and bullets like the 175 grain Winchester Silvertip are outdated designs that underperform against barriers when compared to modern 40SW bullets. What is left is a bunch of boutique companies offering bullets design for 40SW at speeds being driven way outside of their performance envelope.
I could potentially see and advantage to the 10mm over the 40SW for duty use if ammunition companies could design a bullet that better penetrated intermediate barriers (especially sheet metal and auto glass), while still expanding to at least 0.60" and penetrating no more than 20 inches. In other words, companies would need to redesign a 0.40 caliber bullet around the 10mm cartridge rather than try to impress the masses with 40SW bullets launched at ridiculous speeds. Ideally, I’d like a 10 mm bullet that weighs 200 grains, expands at least to .60" and penetrates 14-20" after all common barriers. I’d prefer the round to trend toward the deeper end of the penetration parameters (personal preference due to all of the fatties that I encounter). It could probably be done in under 1100 FPS if the bullet is designed properly. Having said that, there is not enough institutional interest in the 10mm to make it worth the effort - especially since the 40SW already does a good job.
When I had a G20 my choice for dual purpose carry load was the 200gr Hornady.
I know it would likely blow right through the average guy, but in the woods I cared far less than I did in town, and felt the extra penetration was an advantage when I carried it in black bear country while hiking and camping.
For this role I feel that the 10mm does have an advantage over the .40
I have been carrying the Double Tap 200 grain FMJ in my 29 and 20 as my penetrator load, because it feeds reliably. In multiple Glock 10mm pistols, I got stoppages with the Buffalo Bore and Corbon 200 grain penetrator loads.
For a JHP, I have been using the Corbon or DT 155 JHP load with the Barnes bullet. I would love to see some test data on this load, as all I know is it feeds and is accurate in my pistols. I picked it on the basis of it being a Barnes bullet, and no other obvious JHP alternative standing out. Mostly I carry the penetrator loads, in the field, and if I want a JHP carry another caliber, based on my performance on known drills with the 10 versus my better performance with a 9, 40 or 45.
