This optic will be for a KAC SR15 IWS. This will be my primary carbine. It will be used for classes, matches, and personal defense outside of the home if ever required to do so. I live in a semi-rural area. On the one hand, the 1-4 makes sense because of the somewhat limited effective range of the 5.56 cartridge. Something like a TR24 is fast on 1X, but offers the advantages of magnification at 4X. Downsides are having to change the power setting to meet the shooting requirements (I realize a Cat Tail can mitigate this), and no holdover or ranging ability with the TR24.
On the other hand, something like a Nightforce 2.5-10 offers greater precision due to the 10X. It is available with a reticle that allows for ranging and holdover, and it also has readily accessable windage and elevation. Up-close shots are accomplished through rotating the rifle and using the canted micro dot. Downsides are increased weight, increased cost, and having to shoot in open class for matches.
This is to be an off-hand shoulder-fired rifle, not a precision rifle with a bipod, that’s what my bolt gun is for. Which optic setup would/did you choose and why?
If you can get some time behind a TR24, do so. With one of Chris’s cattails, they’re absolutely quick to use and change magnification. If the triangle accupoint works for you, then the TR24 is an unbeatable optic.
The short dot would be next on the list to consider - for about what a nightforce and T-1 on offset would set you back, you can get a used Short dot. Pricy - yes, but you’ll save time wondering if you could have bought a better optic. I haven’t seen anything better.
Isn’t the Short-Dot just 1-4, though? I guess the fundamental question I’m wrestling with is defining the realistic effective range of the rifle. My understanding is that 75 grain out of a 16" barrel runs out of effective penetration and fragmentation ability at about 225 yds. However, you can dial a scope on an AR to shoot 1000 yds. What does 5.56 do to a living target at say 400 or 500 yds? I think my opinion is this:
(1) If the max effective range of the 5.56 is 225, a non-magnified RDS is the way to go.
(2) If the max effective range of the 5.56 is 400 yds, the 4X is probably sufficient
(3) If it is realistic to be shooting living targets at 600+, something with 8X or 10X is worth having, but in conjunction with a RDS for close shots
This link will take you to the SWFA web site where there is a series of photos comparing and contrasting the short dot,(1-4X) nightforce (1-4X) and two new, ( soon to be released but not yet available) Super Sniper 1-4X HD scopes. These new SS scopes are FFP with mil/mil using far better optics than the older $300.00 SS 10X. The production models will have a multi position illumination switch with an off position between each setting. They are daylight visible and true 1X as you can see in the photos. Both reticules will be available and will be offered in both caped and exposed knobs models. Retail will be in the neighborhood of $800.00. I’ve been waiting for these to come out for some time and I think they will be worth the wait.
Ive become a huge fan of the Burris XTR 1-4. Been using it for 3gun, and the reticle is absouletly amazing. It comes a EOTech style center reticle and a long range scope reticle for distance shooting. Put the “Dots” on target out to 300, after that you have the rest for 400+ and it works perfectly with 62gr M855 as thats what its calibrated for. Works great with 55gr XM193 and 75gr Hornady Match BTHP as well.
Another 1-4 to look at is the Vortex Viper HD 1-4 with MOA reticle. Its a very quality scope as well.
Utah1 and jwfuhrman:
Thank you for sharing.
All:
What I’m seeking help with is not what brand of optic to buy, but rather, what type. I’m looking to weigh the pros/cons of the subject optic setups against the capabilities and purpose of the carbine. Thank you for your help!
I know I will take some heat for this, but, me and another guy have been testing a bunch of different optics including 1-4s and 1.5-6
I have much more of a hunting interest on scopes, while he does private training for some tier 1 guys about to be deployed
We both have come to the conclusion that the “need” for a true 1x is overblown…
We both feel that at 1.5x we can still get on targets, steel, paper or moving at very, very close distances very fast and that having 6x on the top end and a bigger objective is better for low light…
And a true 1x still isn’t as fast as an Aimpoint or Eotech up close if your life is on the line…
Yeah its a compromise to having both short range and medium to long range in one scope shooting through one tube.
Id rather SB made the new SD out the 1.5-6x42 you have just with the external turrets and with a mil based reticle. Im not really digging the high magnification specs only having a 3MM exit pupil. The 1.5-6x42 has a 7MM exit pupil at 6X.
Thats basically my issue, too. Shooting out to 750 yards I need some way to adjust the scope otherwise its not going to work. With a 308 Im between 11-13.5 MOA depending on the load, and 21-25 at 750. My SD goes to 25MOA of adjustment so Im barely on there for that.
The 1.5-6X42 would give 2X more mag and better low light ability.
Ive handled a few Khales and they make some good scopes for a bit less than SB. I have a buddy in Austria who is big into them, and they definitely performed well looking through them. Was able to spot deer in the shade with a setting sun pretty easy.
I went with 2.5-10 Nightforce and T-1 on offset mount. The final plan is to put it on 0.308 rifle, but at this point is resides on my MSTN upper which is similar to KACs SR15.
I like the setup, but there is a learning curve, and I am not there yet. I considered Short Dot, but after trying it, I found that even offset T-1 is faster to pick up. Another aspect with SD is a battery life. Another thing is x10.
The issues with NF/offset T-1 I’ve had so far were mental confusion which sight to go to at intermediate distances, shooting at atypical positions and from weak shoulder, and need for a T-1 mount. I found that most offset mounts put T-1 lower than NF so rotating the rifle is not enough to pick the dot fast; you also need to change head position. I put my T1 on KAC mount and attached it to rail via DD offset mount; this way I only need to rotate my rifle to bring the dot in the line of sight.
I have rifles set up similar to what you are asking.
My Larue Stealth (precision set up) with a Nightforce 2.5-10 and a Primary Arms T1 clone in a off set Larue mount.
I also have two rifles with Swarovski 1-6X scopes. The N4 carbine has the older Circle Dot and the new 18 inch Rogue Hunter has the BRT bullet drop reticle.
I have played around with both set ups. For your uses I think a good 1-4,5,6 would be better. I love the Larue set up and I think its better suited to precision work. Just my two cents after owning and shooting both a fair amount. If you can afford the Swarovski Z6i BRT I would get it. There is no better scope in its class in my opinion.
Pat
With my handload of a 77 grain SMK at 2600 fps at the muzzle I still have 325 foot pounds of energy at 600 yards. That is not a ton but its still enough to kill someone if the shots are placed properly. Now 55 grain ball only has 219 foot pounds at that range.
With the proper ammo I believe you can still be effective with the 5.56 out to about 600 yards. I admit 600 is a bit optimistic. A little wind can make it hard to hit at that range. At least it does for me. Calm day no problem. But with wind its a crap shoot.
I disagree with the statement in red. I have found it just as fast from conventional firing positions. Where the RDS systems have the edge is from awkward firing positions.
Some videos. In these videos I simply started from the low ready and fired 2 rounds into each target at 7 yards (CQB range) as fast as I could. I found no difference in speed between the red dots and 1x on my variables.
TR24 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwtbL0tTirg
“Where the RDS systems have the edge is from awkward firing positions”
I agree with this statement, and that was primarily my buddies take on trying a few different 1-4s, that they were fine until you started running, shooting from behind cover at odd angles, etc…
Central to your decision is the upper end of magnification required. I would suggest you borrow a 4X scope and try it at the distance you see as the outer edge of your requirements. If your OK with 4X your half way there. The features I like about the Super Sniper I linked to are the bold daylight visible illumination which is also a bold black design in the event of battery failure at 1X. I also like the FFP feature not for the conventional reason of the mildots being accurate at any power adjustment, rather because it gives me the bold 1X reticule for close range and a precision reticule at longer range. Think of it more as a two position scope i.e. 1X OR 4X like a Elcan Specter or a IOR Pitbull rather than a 1X through 4X. I also like the the mil/mil adjustments because if you can see your missed shots impact, what you see is what you dial. Considering the terminal ballistics of the 5.56 round, shot placement at longer range requires all the precision you can muster. If you want more magnification power your choice may impact your fast and close performance. There are several 1-8X and March even makes a 1-10X but they will dent your check book. As to the “True 1X” debate, I find that to some people this is an issue to others it is not. Personally I can use the Bindon method with my dominate eye up to 3X. Not as fast as an Aimpoint but I can do it. If I am shooting weak side using my non-dominate eye I have to have a true 1X. Try before you buy. One other point if you are going to more magnification. Stay away from parallax adjustments. It is just another adjustment that can be left in the wrong position and at carbine ranges you don’t need it. I shoot a M1a NM and a LMT MWS at steel IPSC targets out to 800 yards using a 3-9 Super Sniper which has no parallax adjustments with no problem. I hope this helps.
