A quote I often see re: shotguns.
“At typical room distance a shotgun has very little spread, so there’s no hit percentage advantage over a rifle.”
Benelli Nova 18.5"
Winchester “Military Grade” 9 pellet #00 Buckshot
12 yards (distance from my hallway to the front door, across the living room).
A good rule of thumb for buckshot (pre Federal flight control wad) is that it will spred one inch +/- for every yard of distance… The Federal flight control tac 9, 00 buck, is about half of that…
B
The advantage of a scattergun isn’t necessarily that you have a greater chance of hitting a target due to spread, it is that you can put so much lead into a target with one devastating shot!
Good to know.
My van comp’ed scattergun is a little tighter. It consistently places 6 of 9 pellets on a standard IPSC at 50 meters with military 00 buck. At seven meters it produces a hole roughly the size of a slug.
The Winchester GI buckshot is not known for tight patterns. At all. It is in fact some of the worst patterning stuff out there.
FC wads such as Federal and the Hornady TAP line are going to really, really tighten it up. The Vang barrels do well across a variety of buck brands.
And 36 feet is not what I think is typically thought of as across the room distance. The longest shot in my house is 15 yards, but that is across my dining room, living room, a hallway, and into another room.
Why do you want to turn a shotgun into a poor excuse for a rifle with tight shooting Vang-mods, TAP or Flite-Control?
A rifle will dominate a shotgun outside of 20 yards.
5.56 and .308 are at least as effective as fight stoppers inside 20 yards.
The main advantage a shotgun has over a rifle is a greater hit percentage (especially on moving targets in poor light) inside 20 yards.
By chasing ever and ever tighter groups you negate the main advantage a shotgun has.
I specifically chose the Olin 9 pellet Military load for its spread at 10-15 yards to maximize that hit potential yet still be a small enough pattern to ensure the minimum number of strays.
It goes without saying that a carbine will dominate over a shotgun.
A shotgun is still a shotgun, regardless of how the buckshot groups. Extending the range with van comp systems or high speed buckshot rounds makes a weapon more versatile and versatility is the strong suit of a shotgun.
The fundamentals of shooting apply no matter what weapon system you are using. If you can’t hit shit with a carbine you still won’t hit shit with a shotgun no matter how much it scatters.
By chasing ever and ever tighter groups you negate the main advantage a shotgun has.
No, by chasing ever and ever tighter groups we’re negating the main liabilities a shotgun has: pellets not hitting the target, and extending it’s effective range.
My goal is to dump all the energy my scattergun has into the target, not waste 7/9s or 8/9s of it because I was too lazy to learn how to shoot properly.
Is this with a straight cylinder bore or choked?
I think it comes from LE where many are forced to push the range of the shotgun because it’s the only long gun they have.
Since we are bench racing the ever living hell out of things, what if that single pellet or three that you’re counting on saving your “hit percentage” runs in to IIIA soft armor instead of flesh?? If that’s the case, you’re going to need to shoot again.
The carbine in 5.56 is faster for follow-up shots with full power ammo, in my experience. It also defeats soft armor.
That being said, I also have a 12ga with 9 pellet 00buck in it – but practice so that my main shot group is as shown above in the target. I’m not counting on “getting lucky”, because when the SHTF in my house and involves a gun fight, I don’t think I want to count on good luck being with me.
A shotgun is not a rifle and never will be, no matter what modifications are made. It will still have too much recoil, too little accuracy and too little capacity. It is NOT shot the same as a rifle either, despite the fact that both are shoulder fired. This is a common error made by people who then complain that their shotgun cannot perform as well as an M4 as their M4 can.
What a shotgun can do well is hit moving targets quickly at short range and do so with a lot of force…unless you tighten the choke to the point you are shooting a slug, put rifle sights, pistol grip stocks, etc to the point that it can no longer be shot as a shotgun should be.
Personally, I disagree that a shotgun is a versatile weapon. I tend to think that it is a very specialized weapon that performs a few tasks well and fails miserably at others.
Various types of slugs, flachette, non-lethal, buckshot…seems pretty versatile to me. Granted, it is only useful in short ranges, but it can perform many functions within this range.
I don’t know that that is absolutely the case. If it is a duty weapon, the shotgun may be the only long gun available. In some localities, an AR or rifle may not be legal while a shotgun would be. For some, money considerations may dictate that a shotgun be used, at least until a carbine can be purchased.
Additionally, errant pellets are a liability. In situations that require taking a shot at longer ranges tight patterns are a desirable feature.
A rifle will dominate a shotgun outside of 20 yards.
5.56 and .308 are at least as effective as fight stoppers inside 20 yards.
I don’t think anybody has said otherwise; in general a carbine is going to be preferrable to a carbine if the choice can be made. However if armor isn’t an issue 556A2 said this in another thread: “From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use.”
The main advantage a shotgun has over a rifle is a greater hit percentage (especially on moving targets in poor light) inside 20 yards.
By chasing ever and ever tighter groups you negate the main advantage a shotgun has.
I specifically chose the Olin 9 pellet Military load for its spread at 10-15 yards to maximize that hit potential yet still be a small enough pattern to ensure the minimum number of strays.
By saying “The main advantage” etc, you are actually saying that that is your interpretation of what the main advantage is. Others may see that spread as anything but an advantage.
For you, in your case that may very well be the main advantage and I completely understand your position and don’t disagree with it. If the wider spread is what you want, then yes it would be the main advantage. For others the opposite is desirable and the amount of damage done by multiple projos striking in a very small area is the main advantage. Keeping that pattern as small as possible as it moves downrange in a litigious environment could be a requirement for the shooter and possibly even more advantageous.
Are you really negating the liability of misses?
Let’s look at it this way.
If I only hit the target with 5/9 pellets because I miss my target by 6" with a 10" spread that’s 4 stray pellets.
If you miss your target by 6" and your spread is 4", you just sent 7 or 8 pellets downrange unaccounted for.
As to extending the effective range. #00 looses steam very quickly no matter what sized pattern you send downrange. Once the round sheds enough energy it doesn’t really matter if 3 pellets hit the target or 6 do.
As to learning to shoot properly.
I’ve watched hundreds of shooters come through shotgun and carbine classes as well as 3-gun matches.
NONE of them were capable of 100% hits on a moving target on demand with no warmup. Even with Vang, Flite-Control, TAP, or their favorite RDS equipped AR. Add in life or death stress and 100% hits just isn’t very likely.
I’d sell the gun, change ammo, or both…:bad:
Why’s that?
Because it looks like a shotgun pattern instead of a slow fire rifle target?
Please elaborate on exactly what role you think the shotgun plays and the optimum ammunition for that role.
As said earlier in the post, the Winchester/Olin “Military” Buckshot is one of the worst patterning shells on the market, and is just Winchester Super-X 00 buckshot with a green hull.
(From L to R: Win Super-X, Win Military, Fed Vital-Shok)
FWIW, the reason I use tight patterning buckshot is because I cannot afford a single .32 caliber pellet missing my target. I use Federal Vital-Shok without the FCW which gives be a 4" pattern at the same range.
No…it looks like a shitty shotgun pattern.
At 12 yards I still want the option to take a shot where that pattern could be a liability.
I can understand the thought regarding the super tight pattern if the shotgun is all that is available to an individual. Unforunately the tight chokes, at least as far as I am aware, preclude most less lethal uses. Flechettes are very specialized and are essentially the same tool as buck with better penetration.
I also think that that individual would be better off setting the gun up for slug useage and treating it like a rifle, albeit a poor one unless bears are the primary threat. However, any slug useage forces the shotgun outside of its area of specialty and is a stopgap measure. I understand accurate slugs abound these days but they still pale in comparison to a dedicated rifle. The sights necessary for good slug useage considerably slow the dedicated buck shooter.
Again, I see a strong suit for the shotgun and it is fast, reactionary shots inside a structure or at short range. I also agree with JodyH about the likelihood of a complete miss on a moving target as opposed to a stray pellet being the primary liability.
Are you really negating the liability of misses?
Let’s look at it this way.
If I only hit the target with 5/9 pellets because I miss my target by 6" with a 10" spread that’s 4 stray pellets.
If you miss your target by 6" and your spread is 4", you just sent 7 or 8 pellets downrange unaccounted for.
Nothing erases the liability of flat-out missing. The difference is that your rig involves almost always missing even when you hit. That’s simply unacceptable to me.
As to extending the effective range. #00 looses steam very quickly no matter what sized pattern you send downrange. Once the round sheds enough energy it doesn’t really matter if 3 pellets hit the target or 6 do.
We’re talking about the difference between 20 and 40 yards here, 50 max. 00 has plenty of juice left over at 50yds and any way you cut it, more hits are better than fewer hits.
For others the opposite is desirable and the amount of damage done by multiple projos striking in a very small area is the main advantage. Keeping that pattern as small as possible as it moves downrange in a litigious environment could be a requirement for the shooter and possibly even more advantageous.
This is me and my attitude towards the shotgun in a nutshell.