Macerated Wound Channels with Handguns?

[Center Shot]

I have recently read a couple of articles written by a well known Gun Writer, and Law Enforcement Officer that mentions macerated wound channels with handgun rounds.

The author is talking about high velocity 9mm rounds such as the WW 127 +P+, and the Federal 115 +P+ rounds.

He says "I've seen autopsies where such rounds resulted in a finding of "cause of death: macerated heart." Macerated is the medical term for "burrito filling." The faster bullets seem to be the way to go. There is much more corollary tissue damage around the wound channels with the faster 9mms, with medical examiners documenting "macerated" flesh, that is, tissue chopped up like burrito filling. You don't see that with subsonic rounds.

Do these statements have any truth to them? If yes would this make the round more effective in stopping a perpetrator.

[sgalbra76]

....not from what I've read in Dr. Fackler's work.

A handgun bullet that passes through your body will crush, cut, and tear tissue. It pretty much never does any damage beyond what it makes physical contact with and from most trauma surgeon's journals there is no real difference between say a .357magnum and a 9mm. The differences come in the form of what type of bullet is used.

A rounded nosed FMJ 9mm for example will push a lot of tissue out of the way instead of crushing it. Kinda like shooting a target arrow into a dead animal. When you withdraw the arrow, it has a lot of resistance because the tissue is stretched around it, and when it's pulled out the tissue closes in around the wound. An expanded hollow point or waddcutter bullet doesn't push tissue out of the way, it crushes it in its flight path. The crushed material resembles macerated tissue, because it has been cut/torn from the outter edge of the wound channel and then furthur crushed in the wound path.

The velocity difference between a 1000fps 9mm versus a 1250fps 9mm is so small that you really can't tell difference between the two in the physical wound. Now if we are talking rifle rounds, that's a whole other ball game. The kinetic energy of a rifle round, or something like a .500S&W Magnum will cause so much wake and stretching of the surrounding tissue that it will disrupt surround organs and even tear and rip them. This is a big reason why a rifle round is so much more effective than a pistol round. The only way to improve on the "macerated" effect as you described it in typical handgun velocities is to increase the caliber size by going up to a .40 or .45.

Higher velocity JHP loads in the past were much more reliable in expansion, while slower velocity JHP didn't open up all the time. With modern ammo, the expansion rate is much more reliable in the slower velocity loadings. There is always a percentage of expansion failure in shootings, so my feeling is that going with the +P loading gives you a little more of a chance of making sure that hollow point opens up. I usually take it further than that and use a larger caliber as well in case the bullet doesn't expand. 9mm FMJ does'nt have the best terminal effects record, and that's just what you get if your JHP doesn't expand.

[Shawn Dodson]

...with medical examiners documenting "macerated" flesh, that is, tissue chopped up like burrito filling... A sweeping, unsupported statement from an untrustworthy source.

So a bad guy gets shot in the heart with a 9mm JHP handgun bullet. His death is caused by the hole. It really doesn't matter what the load is.

I suppose if the bullet hit the heart at the right moment during its beat, when it's full of blood, that the temporary cavity could produce permanent disruption (tears and ruptures) in elastic heart tissues. It's one variable that probably doesn't happen too often.

I doubt the temporary cavity from a near miss or even a grazing hit would produce this kind of so-called "macerating" trauma to the heart.

[9mm_shooter]

Fibrin can congeal and look like bits and pieces of flesh, sort of like the inside of blood sausage.

[Gutshot John]

I was under the impression that "maceration" was the softening of tissue due to moisture like getting pruney hands in the shower or nasty feet in a wet boot.

Maybe some clarification is in order.

[tpd223]

In two of the OIS autopsies here that I have looked into the heart was split into two pieces by the bullet, in one case a 125gr .357mag, in the other a 124gr +P Ranger-T 9mm round.

Talking to the Doc I was advised he believed the heart was at full pump when struck, thus leading to this dramatic level of wounding.

Just sayin, it happens sometimes, although I have never heard the term macerated outside of these articles.

[WS6]

I have heard numerous times from people who have shot a lot of animals that a 9mm makes the same hole as a .45. Something has to be going on here for this to be true, imho. As long as it will penetrate 12-16", more velocity certainly can't hurt.

Just my .02

[DocGKR]

WS6--you have posted here long enough and I suspect have enough science background to realize exactly what is going on and why 9 mm and .45 ACP soft tissue wounds appear the same clinically.

[WS6]

WS6--you have posted here long enough and I suspect have enough science background to realize exactly what is going on and why 9 mm and .45 ACP soft tissue wounds appear the same clinically.

Tissue is elastic. I understand, but time and time again I hear from hunters that the 9mm, 357, .45, all drop hogs/deer the same if you hit them in the heart-lung area. It doesn't make sense that the 9mm should drop a hog as fast as a .45, due to the smaller permanent wound-channel.

I simply cannot make up my mind. I know the "facts", but I know enough to know that there are things I don't know :(

[tpd223]

I don't believe they make the same hole, obviously the naked eye looking at a bloody hole would have trouble telling one from the next, but I'm also not sure how much difference 1 or 2 millimeters makes in real life.

[sgalbra76]

I don't believe they make the same hole, obviously the naked eye looking at a bloody hole would have trouble telling one from the next, but I'm also not sure how much difference 1 or 2 millimeters makes in real life.

+1

When you look at the bloody pulp of a wound channel, it's hard to distinguish the actual hole diameter. However, there is a clear cutting instrument(the bullet) difference:

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg

The bigger bullet is more likely to hit important stuff, more likely to cause rapid incapacitation through a CNS hit, and is more likely to cause rapid bleed out(oxygen depletion). All of this things are desirable attributes when it comes to putting someone down in a hurry.

[dashotgun]

with regard to the cardiac injury do not discount the effects of the fact of the blood escaping from the wound 125mm of pressure suddenly released is going to rip and rend the tissue. It is a moot point shot in the heart the subject is going to die fairly rapidly whether shot with a 9 40 or 45. DocGKR correct me if I am wrong but Cavitation occurs I believe when the bullet exceeds the transonic velocity in flesh. The only pistol caliber to do so is the .44mag. With regard to the above post I guess a .1 of a dfference in diameter might make a difference between hitting the heart or not. Trust me it is not going to make a difference if you hit a major artery or a direct shot on the brain. BTW although I am not a dedicated trauma surgeon I have done some trauma surgery

http://www.bcm.edu/oto/grand/02_12_04.htm