View Full Version : When building your first AR - most common errors?
My situation-
As soon as Vltor starts shipping A5 spring/buffer kits I will have every piece I need for my first build (mostly noveske/dd/vltor parts). I have all the tools, punches, blocks, vises, torque wrench, AR wrenches, etc to do the job. I am mechanically inclined (mech engineer with job shop, machining, metal fab background).
My question-
Are there any steps that I should seriously consider leaving to a gunsmith? In particular, staking the castle nut, affixing the barrel? I am completely comfortable with the LPK/TCG assembly, and the external parts (FF handguard, furniture, flash hider). Further, what should I look out for in general?
One last thing- I do not have a heavy bench vise currently. I have a Panavise 301, securely mounted http://www.panavise.com/index.html?pageID=1&page=full&--eqskudatarq=2. Is this too small for the job?
Thanks in advance.
My situation-
As soon as Vltor starts shipping A5 spring/buffer kits I will have every piece I need for my first build (mostly noveske/dd/vltor parts). I have all the tools, punches, blocks, vises, torque wrench, AR wrenches, etc to do the job. I am mechanically inclined (mech engineer with job shop, machining, metal fab background).
My question-
Are there any steps that I should seriously consider leaving to a gunsmith? In particular, staking the castle nut, affixing the barrel? I am completely comfortable with the LPK/TCG assembly, and the external parts (FF handguard, furniture, flash hider). Further, what should I look out for in general?
One last thing- I do not have a heavy bench vise currently. I have a Panavise 301, securely mounted http://www.panavise.com/index.html?pageID=1&page=full&--eqskudatarq=2. Is this too small for the job?
Thanks in advance.
Way too small for barrel nut install in my opinion.
noted, thank you.
Should have wrote;
To install the barrel nut, you're using ~50 +/- 20 ft/lb of torque. Nothing else on the install even needs a vise to be honest, the castle nut and flash hider can be installed or removed without one most of the time, but a vise certainly helps.
Should have wrote;
To install the barrel nut, you're using ~50 +/- 20 ft/lb of torque. Nothing else on the install even needs a vise to be honest, the castle nut and flash hider can be installed or removed without one most of the time, but a vise certainly helps.
If I am only going to be building the one, or if I happen to get very lucky and land another stripped lower before it is too late, two, am I better off investing in a big enough vise, or taking the upper/barrel(s) to a local gunsmith?
Toyoland66
01-04-13, 22:59
Surely one of your friends has a solid bench mounted vice. It sounds like you should be fine with the caveat that you have researched the proper specs and techniques.
One thing I recommend is greasing the RE threads when torquing the castle nut. I do not use a torque wrench but rather tighten as much as I can without fixing the lower in a vice. Stake the end plate using an auto punch and then touch up the stake marks with a touch up pen.
Pretty much everything else has been documented.
If I am only going to be building the one, or if I happen to get very lucky and land another stripped lower before it is too late, two, am I better off investing in a big enough vise, or taking the upper/barrel(s) to a local gunsmith?
Beg/borrow/steal a vise. ;)
If it's just one, you probably can take it to a local gunsmith for like $20 and 10 min of their time and equipment.
I like the auto punch idea. I have a nice Starrett center punch but am hesitant to use it to stake the castle nut, maybe an auto punch would be easier. Yes, I will research and triple check the specs and procedures before doing anything. I will definitely be treating the threads also. Nice tip about the touch up pen, thanks.
I dont have much in the way of mechanically minded friends currently (I changed careers and no longer have machine shop or fab shop access). If it makes more sense to invest in a good vise, I certainly will take advantage of the excuse;)
Beg/borrow/steal a vise. ;)
If it's just one, you probably can take it to a local gunsmith for like $20 and 10 min of their time and equipment.
I just hit send as you posted this. I guess it will come down to $ and time when it comes time to tighten up the barrel. If I can get it done reasonably quickly and locally, I light go that route, but if not, I guess i will beg/borrow or invest in the right tool.
First things first- DO NOT USE VISE GRIPS TO PRESS ANY PINS INTO PLACE NO MATTER WHAT YOUTUBE VIDEOS SHOW
Torque and back off the barrel nut at least twice before final torque and torque it smoothly. You don't need to over torque it.
Make sure the gas tube fits into the upper receiver cleanly. It should float in the hole and fit in the gas key of the BCG with no binding.
Use a long punch to install the mag release pin. Protect the surrounding area with a few layers of masking tape.
Be very careful installing the trigger guard. It's very easy to break off an ear installing the pin. Use a bit of lube and make sure the ear on the opposite side is fully supported. I used a C clamp
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0012.jpg
A magnet can help with installing detent pins.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0006.jpg
I also used an Exacto blade to assist pushing them in place. I worked inside a clear baggie large enough to get my hands in to keep the pin from launching itself into the unknown when I slipped.
Here is a link to the write up I did, with photos, on how to install the trigger
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=72111
Take your time, don't rush and pay close attention to the details
Good stuff, thanks MistWolf. I just replaced a few missing roll pin holder/starters and roll pin punches earlier tonight so we are definitely on the same page on that subject. I will study the rest of your tips and make sure I understand them as I learn more about the process.
Five_Point_Five_Six
01-05-13, 01:59
Definitely be careful installing the detent pins, taking one to the eye isn't much fun. Don't ask me how I know.
yossarian42
01-05-13, 02:35
Mist just curious, what's wrong with using vice grips/pliers for installing roll pins? I've never done it that way but thought it looked like a good idea.
You have absolutely no control of what happens when the vice grips cam over, they don't squeeze together linearly, and they mar the shit out of everything.
Putting together a lower is not difficult, my 13 y.o. daughter did it with proper tools and never needed anything resembling vice grips ;)
Be very careful installing the trigger guard. It's very easy to break off an ear installing the pin. Use a bit of lube and make sure the ear on the opposite side is fully supported. I used a C clamp
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0012.jpg
I assembled my first lower some time ago and the trigger guard pin was most definitely the hardest portion of assembling the lower. I used an old paperback book as support (several pages folded to fill the gap between the surface of the counter I was working on and the opposite ear).
How well does the C-clamp method work? Is it easier than using a hammer and brass punch? Aside from taking forever to get it centered and started, using a punch marred the edges of the pin hole due to the impact of striking the pin - If a C-clamp avoids this, I'll give it a shot.
Lube the holes before installing pins.....you'd be amazed at how many people don't do this then complain about out of spec pins.
Use roll pin punches for roll pins...that's what they're made for.
No need for all clamps and such when supporting the lower ear on the trigger guard is all that's needed. I've found a typical roll of electrical tape to be the perfect height and also works for many other things where you need some type of support block.
Use moly grease on the threads for your barrel install.
Clamp your barrel with barrel blocks or wood block and install your flash hider before installing your handguard.
I'll second what wahoo95 said about lubricating the pins / holes prior to installation. It makes a world of difference when installing the roll pins. That said, the bolt catch roll pin sometimes is a PITA. I recommend using a roll-pin starter punch here as it really helps out and virtually negates the possibility of scratching your lower.
Also, ensure to properly grease the barrel nut threads / receiver threads and where the barrel nut contacts to flat portion of the barrel extension (see picture below). A friend tried to install a barrel without adding any grease and was completely flustered as to why he could not line up the gas port without excessive torque.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8077/8350094500_31b8d265df_o.jpg
Take your time and use the proper tools.
Toyoland66
01-05-13, 09:09
On the subject of roll pin punches you will need 3 sizes for a typical AR build:
#2 (5/64) for the gas tube roll pin
#3 (3/32) for the bolt catch roll pin and forward assist roll pin
#4 (1/8) for the trigger guard roll pin
Roll pin holders also come in handy for starting the pins straight, however there isn't room to use one on the bolt catch. One trick I have seen is to tape the roll pin to the end of the roll pin punch to get it started.
If you use a magpul trigger guard I would recommend replacing the roll pin supplied with a colt pin as it is much easier to drive and will reduce your odds of breaking an ear off.
A sparing amount of grease in the selector groove and takedown/ pivot pin grooves will help with smooth operation.
Toyoland66
01-05-13, 09:12
Also, ensure to properly grease the barrel nut threads / receiver threads and where the barrel nut contacts to flat portion of the upper receiver (highlighted in red in the picture below). A friend tried to install a barrel without adding any grease and was completely flustered as to why he could not line up the gas port without excessive torque.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8089/8350054250_99082a67a3_o.jpg
Take your time and use the proper tools.
the barrel nut does not contact the face of the upper receiver, it contacts the shoulder of the barrel extension. You are correct that it should be greased.
the barrel nut does not contact the face of the upper receiver, it contacts the shoulder of the barrel extension. You are correct that it should be greased.
caught that... fixed above.
Wow, was this thread ever a good idea. It is one thing to study up on proper the procedure, it is quite another to learn the little idiosyncrasies that make the process go smoothly.
My LPK does include an MOE trigger guard so I will be ordering up the recommended Colt pin asap. While I am at it, are there any other pins or LPK parts that I should consider upgrading for ease of installation and/or fit an finish? My LPK is a PSA MOE kit, w/o TCG (if it ever shows up). I am using an ALG QMS trigger.
skywalkrNCSU
01-05-13, 09:51
I'll second what wahoo95 said about lubricating the pins / holes prior to installation. It makes a world of difference when installing the roll pins. That said, the bolt catch roll pin sometimes is a PITA. I recommend using a roll-pin starter punch here as it really helps out and virtually negates the possibility of scratching your lower.
Also, ensure to properly grease the barrel nut threads / receiver threads and where the barrel nut contacts to flat portion of the barrel extension (see picture below). A friend tried to install a barrel without adding any grease and was completely flustered as to why he could not line up the gas port without excessive torque.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8077/8350094500_31b8d265df_o.jpg
Take your time and use the proper tools.
Well crap, I wish I had seen this a while back...
ramairthree
01-05-13, 11:15
whether you are working on a car, gun, etc. the most common mistake is being in a rush. lots of us are busy as hell with far more work hours than free time.
have a no stress, good period of time set aside.
every scrape, lost little part, etc. i have messed upped happened when in a rush.
Mist just curious, what's wrong with using vice grips/pliers for installing roll pins? I've never done it that way but thought it looked like a good idea.
AKDoug explains why very well
You have absolutely no control of what happens when the vice grips cam over, they don't squeeze together linearly, and they mar the shit out of everything.
Putting together a lower is not difficult, my 13 y.o. daughter did it with proper tools and never needed anything resembling vice grips ;)
...How well does the C-clamp method work? Is it easier than using a hammer and brass punch?...
MUCH easier than using a hammer & punch, especially if you have a C clamp without the floating foot. Place the lower in a vise block and clamp it in a vise, use tape as PTP (Protect The Product) line up the pin and gently tighten the C clamp to press the pin into place. Use a good C clamp so it doesn't distort under pressure (like cheap C clamps will) and make sure the threads run smoothly before using it. The nice part about using the C clamp is that it supports the ear to prevent breakage.
While you do not need a C clamp, it's easy to use and works every time
One trick I have seen is to tape the roll pin to the end of the roll pin punch to get it started.
I love blue painter's tape for this. Well, I love blue painter's tape for anything, but I really like the no residue part for this, too.
Roll pin punches and roll pin starters make it all so much easier. For that tricky little front pivot/takedown detent, I use the Xacto blade trick inside a bag like MistWolf does. A 1-gallon Ziploc bag works fine, a 2-gallon is preferable. (I have big hands.)
I use a starter and roll pin punch on my trigger guard pins, no problems after three builds and several swap-outs. I use a piece of wood to support the ear on the bottom, usually a flat carpenter's pencil. As was mentioned by many, lube the pins and holes.
If you have a dedicated workspace/bench, I recommend getting a full-size 5" or 6" vise. Not just for AR barrle nuts, but for tons of other uses.
michael word
01-05-13, 12:26
I recommend purchasing a full size bench vise as well. They can be bought rather cheaply at lowes, although a bit rough and mine needed a little touch up work. Be sure to keep pressure on the tool against the barrel nut to prevent it from slipping and marring the nut or damaging the tool. Also, dont confuse roll pins with spring pins. spring pins are idendified by being a continuous metal strip coiled many times. they are designed to be used with standard puches and can be damaged by roll pin punches.
ramairthree
01-05-13, 13:34
forgot to add
i have something similar to this made of polymer, that has a few different sized pushers
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metal-Watch-Band-Strap-Bracelet-Link-Pin-Pusher-Remover-Adjuster-Repair-Kit-Tool-/360547944509?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53f255083d
or bust the float cap off a small c clamp like alrwady mentioned
Good stuff.
So it looks like a good bench vise is in order. Done. I dont have a heavyduty bench available at this location but I can always screw it to a length of 2x6 or 2x8 and clamp it to an old iron sewing machine stand that currently acts as the base for my gunsmithing/reloading/cleaning surface (I clamp a 2'x4' piece of thick mdf on it).
Thanks again all.
I put a bath towel over the rifle and myself when installing takedown and pivot pin detents. They will invariably launch one or more times prior to getting it right, and the towel greatly reduces the area I have to search for them. A poncho would also work.
Don't do this in a room that has a shag carpet. =)
I like the plastic bag idea and will have to try that myself.
You guys make the front pivot pin way too difficult. Haven't lost a detente yet. You don't even need to buy the "tool" just go down to the hardware store and buy a 1/4" x 2" clevis pin. Insert spring and detent into receiver.
Compress detent in recess using 3/32" punch and rotate tool.
Push out tool with pivot pin and rotate until detent is in groove of pivot pin.
http://imageserver.grainger.com/is/image/Grainger/1WGF8_AS01?$productdetail$
http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/lower/#pivotPin
NeoNeanderthal
01-05-13, 17:35
The most common error is to buy shitty components and try to save money.
"I can build you an Ar for 800 bucks" (Instead of just buying a colt for 1000)
From what i've learned, the only thing you can scrimp on is the stripped lower. In many cases a 70$ one is as good as a 190$ one.
For the barrel nut and receiver threads, I'm assuming this will work ok:
http://arp-bolts.com/pages/arpultratorque.shtml
I have that on hand, and love it for my engine builds.
You guys make the front pivot pin way too difficult. Haven't lost a detente yet. You don't even need to buy the "tool" just go down to the hardware store and buy a 1/4" x 2" clevis pin. Insert spring and detent into receiver.
Compress detent in recess using 3/32" punch and rotate tool.
Push out tool with pivot pin and rotate until detent is in groove of pivot pin.
http://imageserver.grainger.com/is/image/Grainger/1WGF8_AS01?$productdetail$
http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/lower/#pivotPin
I have about a 50/50 success rate with that method alone. I do use mine to load the spring and detent pin, and then slip the Xacto blade in to hold it in place. I then push the the Clevis pin through with the front pivot pin.
michael word
01-05-13, 17:57
The best lube to use is Aeroshell MS33 grease. This is an aviation grease and the only one on the covilian market that meets the mil-spec requirements for use on the AR as it has no graphite in it to possibly cause corrosion between the steel and aluminium. Easily found on the internet.
I have about a 50/50 success rate with that method alone. I do use mine to load the spring and detent pin, and then slip the Xacto blade in to hold it in place. I then push the the Clevis pin through with the front pivot pin.
The only issues we've had are if the clevis pin and the takedown pin both have too much bevel on their ends. The detente pin will get stuck between them. I dress the end of the clevis pin nice and square and they alleviates the issue for me.
The only issues we've had are if the clevis pin and the takedown pin both have too much bevel on their ends. The detente pin will get stuck between them. I dress the end of the clevis pin nice and square and they alleviates the issue for me.
I tried something similar as well, I cut the end off (Clevis pin) completely square. It helped, but still didn't go issue-free every time.
There is always this tool (http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/pin-tools/ar-15-m16-pivot-pin-installation-tool-prod24654.aspx), but I don't know about dropping that much money for it.
glock_40_caliber
01-05-13, 18:29
Large clear plastic bag over the front of the lower when installing the pivot pin, spring, and detent. Those pins can fly all over if you do not have the timing down right.
Also, taping up the sides of the receiver when installing the bolt catch. First one I built ended up with a small scar before I even finished building it.
gesundheit
01-05-13, 21:49
Forgetting to stake the castle nut.
Being in too much of a hurry.
Five_Point_Five_Six
01-06-13, 08:51
I prefer the small c-clamp method to pliers or vice grips. I also wonder how many lowers are ruined every year from people breaking one of the ears off the trigger guard when trying to Rambo the roll pin into place?
Slvr Surfr
01-06-13, 13:25
This thread should be a sticky!
OP,
+1000 on a good bench vise. I bought a relatively expensive one from Harbor freight. It serves boo koo purposes for all kinds of projects (not just guns).
For castle nut staking, I have also used a auto punch from Harbor freight. Relatively inexpensive. The only issue I have seen was that I tried to stake a hardened sling plate once and it didn't work so well. The tip of the punch was flattened out. 10 seconds on my bench grinder fixed that.
I have also used blue tape generously to prevent any permanent marring on the receiver surfaces.
For installing the front take down pin, I found that working on a high table or counter that places the lower at chest level makes things much easier to install the detent and take down pin. I also second the clear baggie or large bed sheet to catch the flier!
Good luck on the install. :moil:
Blue tape is good stuff. When my kids are building a lower I just cover the whole thing in blue tape. Takes a couple minutes and saves from those slips and rough handling.
This thread should be a sticky!
OP,
Good luck on the install. :moil:
Thanks much. I believe I have ordered every part and tool that I need (that I didnt already have). Now the hardest part- waiting for every last piece to arrive. So far all I have in house is a stripped upper, stripped lower and barrel/bcg/gt. At least those parts all fit together nicely....
You guys make the front pivot pin way too difficult. Haven't lost a detente yet. You don't even need to buy the "tool" just go down to the hardware store and buy a 1/4" x 2" clevis pin. Insert spring and detent into receiver.
Compress detent in recess using 3/32" punch and rotate tool.
Push out tool with pivot pin and rotate until detent is in groove of pivot pin.
I have about a 50/50 success rate with that method alone. I do use mine to load the spring and detent pin, and then slip the Xacto blade in to hold it in place. I then push the the Clevis pin through with the front pivot pin.
Great trick. Thanks to both of you.
From what i've learned, the only thing you can scrimp on is the stripped lower. In many cases a 70$ one is as good as a 190$ one.
I love hearing this. When I picked up my lower I had a choice between Stag, S&W and Anderson. The Stag and S&W were more expensive, plus for reasons that I cant really explain I didnt want a major manufacturer's roll stamp on "my" lower. I compared the 3 and the Anderson looked really really good so I got it. I wont know for sure if it is a good part until I am done but so far the fit with the upper is excellent.
And blue tape it is!
First things first- DO NOT USE VISE GRIPS TO PRESS ANY PINS INTO PLACE NO MATTER WHAT YOUTUBE VIDEOS SHOW
Torque and back off the barrel nut at least twice before final torque and torque it smoothly. You don't need to over torque it.
Make sure the gas tube fits into the upper receiver cleanly. It should float in the hole and fit in the gas key of the BCG with no binding.
Use a long punch to install the mag release pin. Protect the surrounding area with a few layers of masking tape.
Be very careful installing the trigger guard. It's very easy to break off an ear installing the pin. Use a bit of lube and make sure the ear on the opposite side is fully supported. I used a C clamp
A magnet can help with installing detent pins.
I also used an Exacto blade to assist pushing them in place. I worked inside a clear baggie large enough to get my hands in to keep the pin from launching itself into the unknown when I slipped.
Here is a link to the write up I did, with photos, on how to install the trigger
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=72111
Take your time, don't rush and pay close attention to the details
I've never tried the C clamp method, but the rest of this is solid advice.
palmettoman
01-06-13, 21:24
C-clamp method works great
Don't lose the small springs on install.
Any pin install method can go FUBAR dependent on operator skill (or lack thereof).
The plier/vice grip method can work well if you know your way around a tool box, and protect the surfaces of the receiver with tape. It is not better than the right tools for the job.
Success or failure using this method is entirely based on you (as with any method).
There are two types of folks who use Vise Grips (TM) for pressing pins- Those who have marred a work-piece and those who are going to.
I have been using Vise Grips (TM) professionally for a variety of tasks for decades. They make a poor choice as a press and the jaws will mar your work-piece even with tape. You might get away with a few times but sooner or later, the jaws will slip and/or the tape will fail. It's not worth the risk
If you're too lazy to order roll pin starters, needle nose pliers work well for starting roll pins. Just use the needle nose pliers like little tiny fingers that don't get hurt when you bang them with a hammer.
Don't forget the slave pin when installing the trigger group. It keeps everything in place and makes install a breeze.
If a roll pin, etc install doesn't feel like its going in properly, its not. You're either using out of spec parts or doing it incorrectly. Patience is a virtue, and I have a dinged up lower to prove it.
If you need some milspec barrel nut grease, pm me. I have a large tube that I'll probably never use up.
Thanks t42. Luckily the ALG TCG comes with a slave pin so that should help.
I did get the roll pins starts (and roll pin drivers, a nice set of Starett punches with the round holder, etc etc.) I used this project as a good excuse to upgrade or acquire tools that I should have upgraded or acquired long ago (like a vice).
I havent picked out a grease yet but I will keep your offer in mind, thanks.
You shouldn't use vice grips for any portion of lower receiver build (or a c-clamp for that matter). The proper roll pin holders, roll pin punches, bolt catch roll pin punch are the only "specialized" tools necessary. Pins were designed to be "driven" into position, I have never had an issue with the Magpul trigger guard pin, support the ear, lube the pin and hole, pretty easy.
Front pivot pin detent, I use a 1/4" allen key and a razor blade that I "ground" the edge off so it's not dangerous. Put allen key in place, insert spring, then detent with "L" needle nose pliers and hold in place with razor blade and push allen key in to secure detent. Now you just slide the pin right into place while the allen key is displaced by the pin. No bag, no special tools. I have done over 30 lowers like this and it works great.
I do tape the receiver when installing the bolt catch roll pin just to be safe, even though the punch is "shaved" on the one side to allow the pin to be installed straight on.
i've done almost all my builds using the vice grip method, but i don't let them cam over. just squeeze the pin in a bit, then twist the screw on the vice grip to adjust a little more. i also wrap the jaws in blue tape to prevent marring.
not saying it's the right way, just that it works ok (and imho is easier than using punches).
i think other common errors are:
running the gas block all the way to the shoulder instead of leaving the appropriate gap,
using loctite instead of grease on the barrel nut,
misaligning slightly the barrel nut so that the gas tube isn't centered on the carrier key
mismatching rifle and m4 ramps on the receiver and barrel extension,
not properly lubing the FCG,
and putting the hammer spring under the trigger pin instead of in the grooves
but mostly, poor initial part selection, i.e. with no real thought towards how you intend to use the gun, much less optimization and efficiency
The only issues we've had are if the clevis pin and the takedown pin both have too much bevel on their ends. The detente pin will get stuck between them. I dress the end of the clevis pin nice and square and they alleviates the issue for me.
Ditto to this. If the Clevis pin and pivot pin fit flush with no dip, and you hold the detent firm, this method works well. It's well worth the $1.50 at the hardware store.
I'm also guilty of using vise grips. My reasoning is that I'll never do another stripped lower so why get the roll pin starters/punches. I've said this after 5 lowers! :p
I do find needle-nose vise grips handy to hold the roll pin when starting them. You can squeeze them a bit smaller at the same time, which makes it easier to get them started.
The nicest vise I have was picked up at a tag sale for $5. I could barely make out the manufacturer but it looked like it began with S. Took it home and cleaned it up and it's a Starrett #823. Brass jaw pads, spring loaded handle that has no slop when you tighten or loosen the jaws, flip handle on the rotating base, small flat anvil spot on the back, kind of a turquoise paint color, heavy. Made in the USA. They don't make 'em like that anymore. Keep your eye out for this kind of quality vise, it blows the doors off any mass market big box store vise you'll find.
Do not over-torque the muzzle device. It can ruin accuracy.
...Pins were designed to be "driven" into position...
I disagree. It is less damaging to the parts when pins, bearings and other interference fit parts are pressed in rather than hammered in. Using a C clamp properly ensures the opposite side is supported
There is not a properly trained AR armorer anywhere that is using vise grips, c-clamp or any other type of pliers to "press" roll pins into place. Bolt catch or trigger guard, they were designed to be driven in. The concept of using vise grips to install the bolt catch roll pin originated on TOS as far as I tell by people without the proper tools, patience, and skills to do the job properly.
The easiest way to spot a hack is when they brag that they "squeezed" their bolt catch roll pin in with vise grips and just taped up the jaws. If you are having problems installing a trigger guard roll pin from any reputable manufacturer than you should take your project to a qualified gun smith or armorer because you don't have the skill required - which is minimal.
I disagree. It is less damaging to the parts when pins, bearings and other interference fit parts are pressed in rather than hammered in. Using a C clamp properly ensures the opposite side is supported
what exactly is the downside of using vice grips or a c-clamp?
are you claiming the pin is somehow damaged? that it will affect the reliability of the rifle?
has anyone ever had a roll pin malfunction as a result of being inserted with vice grips?
I have seen the damage caused by squeezing the pin in. It's basically cobbing or half-a**ing it. If manufacturers', professional gunsmiths and trained M4 armorers drive the pins in why would anybody do it any other way.
You don't drive a nail with a garden rake, it would probably work but they designed a tool for that job - a hammer. Vise grips, channel locks, c-clamps were all designed to do a job and none of their intended jobs are related to firearms.
It's your receiver do it anyway you like but as soon as I see/hear about squeezing a pin in I know that the guy has no clue. It's about quality of work, if this guy is bubba-gumping something as easy as a bolt catch roll pin or a trigger guard roll pin what else did he f-up?
what exactly is the downside of using vice grips or a c-clamp?
are you claiming the pin is somehow damaged? that it will affect the reliability of the rifle?
has anyone ever had a roll pin malfunction as a result of being inserted with vice grips?
I have seen the damage caused by squeezing the pin in.
and what damage would that be?
Do not over-torque the muzzle device. It can ruin accuracy.
This has always bothered me. Sometimes you have crank on the muzzle device pretty hard to time the the flash hidder. How much of
a problem is this?
Should one use a peel washer or shims instead of a crush washer?
Scratching/gouging to the receiver and one cracked receiver. I am sorry if you don't like the fact any competent gunsmith and/or armorer wouldn't endorse your method of assembly. If it works for you have at it.
I will continue to do it the right way. Good luck.
and what damage would that be?
michael word
01-07-13, 22:45
This has always bothered me. Sometimes you have crank on the muzzle device pretty hard to time the the flash hidder. How much of
a problem is this?
Should one use a peel washer or shims instead of a crush washer?
If you are worried about that, you can use red loctite to attach the flash hider instead of a crush or peel washer. I did that on an SPR build and used cardstock to put tension on the flash hider while the loctite dried then just removed the cardstock. doubt if would make a difference on a standard carbines accuracy.
As a trained, certificated and experienced Airframe & Powerplant Technician, I know why experienced armorers use a hammer & punch to install all the pins, including the trigger guard pin. I also know why I use a C clamp to install that pin and suggest neophytes do the same.
In this case, I know what I know
As a trained, certificated and experienced Airframe & Powerplant Technician, I know why experienced armorers use a hammer & punch to install all the pins, including the trigger guard pin. I also know why I use a C clamp to install that pin and suggest neophytes do the same.
In this case, I know what I know
Care to share the "whys"? In my head, I can't fathom why a C-clamp would be "bad" to install a pin? I've always used a punch, but a C-clamp sure does sound like it would be a nice, smooth way to press in the pin.
Care to share the "whys"? In my head, I can't fathom why a C-clamp would be "bad" to install a pin? I've always used a punch, but a C-clamp sure does sound like it would be a nice, smooth way to press in the pin.
"C" clamps aren't bad, Vice Grips are.
This is like when a parent says 'because'.
Your life skills, technical improvisation and ability to work with tools is all for naught, 'because'.
The C clamp works well because it presses the pin in place without an impact shock to the parts. Parts are less likely to get peened or cracked and it's easier to catch any mis-alignments before they cause complications. C clamps apply steady, constant, low impact pressure and give the installer better control over the process.
Experienced armorers use hammer & punches because tooling setup is quicker and they've done it enough to develop a good feel for the process to perform it without error
I wasn't experienced on the first lower I built, I read, read some more, watched some videos, got the proper tools, took my time and it all went fine. Now 30+ lowers later I have never used a clamp, vise grips, channel locks, etc. and I have never had a issue installing a roll pin with the proper punch.
Basically you're implying that if you are unexperienced it's ok to cob it. If it was a better method or even close to being an equally as good method there would be a professional somewhere using a c clamp to install a roll pin - it makes me laugh when I type it. I will say it again, it's your lower, install the roll pins with an electric toothbrush if you like. Just realize that the professionals have been doing it with a hammer and punch for 40+ years so there must be something to it. Good luck.
The C clamp works well because it presses the pin in place without an impact shock to the parts. Parts are less likely to get peened or cracked and it's easier to catch any mis-alignments before they cause complications. C clamps apply steady, constant, low impact pressure and give the installer better control over the process.
Experienced armorers use hammer & punches because tooling setup is quicker and they've done it enough to develop a good feel for the process to perform it without error
Regarding the c-clamp vs proper tool debate- for my first build this weekend I am going to try to do everything by the book and use the proper tools which I have already purchased anyway. Actually they came in handy already for disassembly and reassembling a couple of light/heavy A5 buffers to create a standard A5H2. If I encounter issues at any point during the lower assembly I will stop, read more, and if for the sake of the build I feel that using a c-clamp is safer than continuing to struggle with my pin driving technique I will give it a try.
And I will use lots of blue tape;)
not sure if this qualify as "build related"
I bought a BCM 16 Lightweight Mid-Length Rifle ( MID-750-LWC ) from G&R and very happy with the build.
Now getting curious if possible to replace the upper receiver with a HK MR556A1.
Is this even possible?
thanks in advance
I wasn't experienced on the first lower I built, I read, read some more, watched some videos, got the proper tools, took my time and it all went fine. Now 30+ lowers later I have never used a clamp, vise grips, channel locks, etc. and I have never had a issue installing a roll pin with the proper punch.
Basically you're implying that if you are unexperienced it's ok to cob it. If it was a better method or even close to being an equally as good method there would be a professional somewhere using a c clamp to install a roll pin - it makes me laugh when I type it. I will say it again, it's your lower, install the roll pins with an electric toothbrush if you like. Just realize that the professionals have been doing it with a hammer and punch for 40+ years so there must be something to it. Good luck.
Cob it? You don't know what you don't know. Carry on
I have mod kits that thread the rear detent hole so that one doesn't go flying if/when you are assembling your lower or changing out the rear plate. It's the same that Seekins puts on their lowers.
This grew out of my needing to buy a replacement rear detent...
ETA: No, I am not claiming that Seekins uses my kits. Just reread my post and wanted to make that clear.
Ok this thread just helped me A LOT! Thanks for this info...I will be bookmarking this as I anticipate my lower and LPK within weeks...hopefully.
Cob it? You don't know what you don't know. Carry on
Coming from the guy using a c clamp to install a roll pin, lol. Is this still m4carbine.net or is it barf.com? lol, a freakin' c clamp, I can't wait to mow my lawn this spring with my bulldozer... lol
i'm not saying one is better than the other. they both seem to work. you've still given zero support for why one is better than the other. surely you realize that the same amateurs that scratch their finishes with vice grips also scratch their finishes with roll punches and hammers? and you seriously expect us to believe that more people crack their receivers with vice grips than hitting them with hammers? come on now :)
stop appealing to the authority of nameless professionals and explain what exactly the difference is.
Proper technique versus improper. How about this, find a gunsmith or armorer that uses a c clamp to install a trigger guard roll pin. Manufacturers, armorers and gun smiths alike all use a punch to install pins, what more needs to be said?
It's like the guy that defends his DPMS claiming it's as good as a Colt, he will defend it all day long so he doesn't have to admit he bought junk. People don't like admitting they are wrong or made a mistake. I can't say it enough - use anything you want to work on your guns it's your perogative. Please don't try to justify it here, a newer member might read it and think it's ok and/or the proper way to do it. We should not be spreading misinformation here, this is supposed to be the "good" site.
In the mean time I'll just continue to use the proper tools and technique. Good luck.
i'm not saying one is better than the other. they both seem to work. you've still given zero support for why one is better than the other. surely you realize that the same amateurs that scratch their finishes with vice grips also scratch their finishes with roll punches and hammers? and you seriously expect us to believe that more people crack their receivers with vice grips than hitting them with hammers? come on now :)
stop appealing to the authority of nameless professionals and explain what exactly the difference is.
Fair enough warner41. Hard to argue with that logic. As a (former) mechanical/process engineer myself I would agree, proper tools and technique are first and foremost. That said, because most of us are not smiths or machinists, it is important that we admit our limitations and know when we are pushing the bounds of our skills and are on the verge of fouling the part we are working on. As I said before, I did purchase the correct tools and have every intention of using the preferred technique, but plan B is to try an alternate method if I have trouble, and plan C is to hand the job over to a good gunsmith (one that I have already reached out to and have arranged to check out the gun before it is test fired).
By the way, the waiting or parts is interminable. Today I got the package that was supposed to contain my castle nut and A2 spring (along with the pieces of the LPK, barrel nut and delta ring, the last parts I need) only to find Brownell's had run out of spring and backordered it. Luckily I found a Springco green spring elsewhere but now I have to wait for that to arrive...
...and on and on it goes
Proper technique versus improper. How about this, find a gunsmith or armorer that uses a c clamp to install a trigger guard roll pin. Manufacturers, armorers and gun smiths alike all use a punch to install pins, what more needs to be said?
well, you could start by telling us WHY. so far, you just keep appealing to a phantom authority
It's like the guy that defends his DPMS claiming it's as good as a Colt,
no, it's not, because there are thousands of threads here detailing the differences between DPMS and colt. The differences are well documented. What is not well documented, is why punches are better than a c clamp.
so feel free to educate us. it's not like I haven't asked 3 times already...
Let's stay on topic- the point of this thread is to learn what to look out for when building your first AR, not argue pin installation techniques;)
There is a right way, some alternative ways, and wrong ways. We are all free to choose whichever method we like.
Fair?
Fair. To each their own.
Let's stay on topic- the point of this thread is to learn what to look out for when building your first AR, not argue pin installation techniques;)
There is a right way, some alternative ways, and wrong ways. We are all free to choose whichever method we like.
Fair?
The most common mistakes are usually, and some of these were mentioned in this thread.
1. Using less than quality parts just to save a few bucks. You end up buying things twice.
2. Not having the proper tools and instructions.
3. Being in a hurry because the "Completion Fever" hit with a vengeance!
4. Running into a small problem and NOT coming here for advice to help correct it before it invariably becomes a, and I hate this phrase,"Metric Shit Ton" of a problem. Now it's starting to cost you some money and a definite blow to the ego! :D Good luck on your build.
bigredneck61088
01-10-13, 18:23
Buy once cry once, get quality first and it will be cheaper. Read all you can on here first, some of us learned the hard way and have to rebuild guns again to make them last! Never stop learning
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Buy once cry once, get quality first and it will be cheaper. Read all you can on here first, some of us learned the hard way and have to rebuild guns again to make them last! Never stop learning
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
thanks bigred and 3ae. I am in no hurry for sure. I did my best to buy the best parts I could find (within reason). This isnt a match gun but the only parts in the whole build that are not by dd/noveske/vltor/alg/kns and troy are the moe grip and trigger guard, some gaudy chrome dpms controls and a pack of generic springs. I will upgrade those lower parts later on. You take what you can get right now;) I consider myself very lucky to have landed such good parts, and at normal prices. MANY hours of internet scouring and several returns/exchanges later, of course.
As for the learning part, well thats half the fun! The more you learn about how your guns work the better they seems to operate. Funny how that works!
Toyoland66
01-10-13, 20:02
thanks bigred and 3ae. I am in no hurry for sure. I did my best to buy the best parts I could find (within reason). This isnt a match gun but the only parts in the whole build that are not by dd/noveske/vltor/alg/kns and troy are the moe grip and trigger guard, some gaudy chrome dpms controls and a pack of generic springs. I will upgrade those lower parts later on. You take what you can get right now;) I consider myself very lucky to have landed such good parts, and at normal prices. MANY hours of internet scouring and several returns/exchanges later, of course.
As for the learning part, well thats half the fun! The more you learn about how your guns work the better they seems to operate. Funny how that works!
Head over here and replace the gaudy DPMS parts with colt parts
http://www.specializedarmament.com/catalog/AR_15_Lower_Receiver_Parts-4-0.html
Head over here and replace the gaudy DPMS parts with colt parts
http://www.specializedarmament.com/catalog/AR_15_Lower_Receiver_Parts-4-0.html
Excellent. Done. I will send the dpms/midway order back without even opening the box! Thats not a bad LPK. ALG trigger, KNS pins, Colt controls. And no chrome. Sure, I way overpaid but I had already overpaid for the cheesy DPMS parts anyway. I would rather overpay and have something nice.
Thanks!
Excellent. Done. I will send the dpms/midway order back without even opening the box! Thats not a bad LPK. ALG trigger, KNS pins, Colt controls. And no chrome. Sure, I way overpaid but I had already overpaid for the cheesy DPMS parts anyway. I would rather overpay and have something nice.
Thanks!
They're so backed up with people who want their orders filled, save them the time and don't bother them with a return for a product you decided you no longer want.
They're so backed up with people who want their orders filled, save them the time and don't bother them with a return for a product you decided you no longer want.
No way- I look at the opposite way. As hard as I looked for those parts to finish my lower, it would be silly for me to sit on a set of controls that someone else might need. Part hoarding is making it impossible for us to complete builds!
No way- I look at the opposite way. As hard as I looked for those parts to finish my lower, it would be silly for me to sit on a set of controls that someone else might need. Part hoarding is making it impossible for us to complete builds!
So list it on the ee for what you paid for it. Returning a product you no longer WANT, a part with no defect or any misrepresentation on their website, hinders the next guy from receiving their order in a timely manner. Don't even tell me it has anything to do with parts hoarding.
I dont agree at all. Nor do I have to. Midway and I have a pretty good relationship. We dont need any help.
Edit:
I keeping them after all. I am assembling another emergency lpk in case I luck into another lower.
Let's stay on topic- the point of this thread is to learn what to look out for when building your first AR, not argue pin installation techniques;)
There is a right way, some alternative ways, and wrong ways. We are all free to choose whichever method we like.
Fair?
I have to disagree with you. I believe this has everything to do with the topic of discussion. Marring or even destroying your lower because a person refuses to use the proper tools is the biggest mistake you can make when putting an AR together.
It comes down to wether or not a person wants to build a quality product or just be another hack on the Internet. Use the proper tools the first time and you have a greater chance of success the first time.
It seem pretty logical, no?
I have to disagree with you. I believe this has everything to do with the topic of discussion. Marring or even destroying your lower because a person refuses to use the proper tools is the biggest mistake you can make when putting an AR together.
It comes down to wether or not a person wants to build a quality product or just be another hack on the Internet. Use the proper tools the first time and you have a greater chance of success the first time.
It seem pretty logical, no?
It does, and your logic is sound- but, if someone has trouble tapping a roll pin into a trigger guard ear, using the proper tools or not, and chooses to use an alternate method to do it (like a c-clamp), I am not going to hold that against him. Especially if the method is safe, albeit a bit slower. An armorer might never use a c-clamp, but we are not all armorers.
I have the right tools, and will try to do it right, but if I dont feel like I am succeeding and I think an alternate method will preserve my precious, precious lower, believe you me, I will be giving the c-clamp tip a try, or taking the lower to a gunsmith.
I have assembled 5 lowers and 3 uppers for friends and IMO they are so simple to assemble that if you have a problem other than a faulty machined part you shouldn't be attempting the project. They are that simple. There is lots of info here.
I have assembled 5 lowers and 3 uppers for friends and IMO they are so simple to assemble that if you have a problem other than a faulty machined part you shouldn't be attempting the project. They are that simple. There is lots of info here.
I have to agree with this. I just assembled my first lower and it is very simple. After watching a few youtube videos and buying a few tools I had mine assembled in 30 minutes.
Excellent. As soon as my damn KNS lower pins get here I will find out!
update- not all the parts have arrived but I did get the ALG trigger, mag release and moe trigger guard installed. The roll pin starters did what they are supposed to do and got the trigger guard pin about half way in nicely. The roll pin driver took it from there and easily tapped the pin into the (supported) lower ear. No need for a c-clamp in this case. Very smooth process actually.
2 thumbs up for the ALG QMS trigger by the way. As new as it is, it is already breaking very cleanly (a little bit of creep, but no gritty feeling) and at a consistent 6#. What more could I ask for at only $45. I tried it with KNS pins and it had way more creep.
She is a shooter at last. Ran off the only 20 rounds of ammo I had on hand this morning (less than ideal 50 grain AE through a 1:7 twist) and it worked great. Very very smooth, soft shooting gun. One adjustment in each direct got me close to zero, enough for now anyway. Accuracy is excellent, except when I get in the way as you can see by the flyer.
Thanks for all the tips everyone.
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