View Full Version : Daniel Defense Lightweight?
I have done many searches and read a lot of opinions about how the pencil lightweight barrel is inferior to the heavy barrel but has anyone on here actually had a lightweight barrel fail. If so, how many rounds, what ammo etc???
I like the weight savings and have heard a lot of great things about daniel's defense...
I don't recall reading any reports of a pencil barrel from a reputable manufacturer failing, and even the idea that it's "inferior" is debated.
I don't recall reading any reports of a pencil barrel from a reputable manufacturer failing, and even the idea that it's "inferior" is debated.
I keep reading the barrel losing accuracy because it heats up faster, wears out faster etc...I just want to hear from someone that has actually had an issue. Tired of reading opinions, I am pretty set on getting the version 5 LW....
You may have read that. But probably not here. There are a couple threads here where people debate the issue. But by far logic and experience rule in the end. The lightweight barrels are not inferior.
Compared to the government profile, they are the same diameter under the handguards. Theoretically, they should both fail at the same time.
i agree with pira114. the heat sink will be on the chamber end. there could possibly be a difference if you decided to dump several mags as fast as you could.
I keep reading the barrel losing accuracy because it heats up faster, wears out faster etc...I just want to hear from someone that has actually had an issue. Tired of reading opinions, I am pretty set on getting the version 5 LW....
I still pull fist sized groups at 100yds from at Colt 6720 after the barrel is nice and warm from several hours of shooting. Never had any issues occur, at anytime yet. YMMV
The only issues that I have heard of is when putting a suppressor on a light weight barrel.
Veterans Day and you boys are arguing barrel failure.. Its almost funny....weight difference from the truck to the range between a pencil and gov profile..just buy a mil spec barrel and call it a day
polymorpheous
11-12-12, 03:08
Lightweight barrels will heat up faster, but they also will cool faster.
Groups will open up as the barrel heats up faster than a standard profile barrel will.
A good question to ask is what your intended use for the rifle is.
I am happy with my M4V7 upper. A Colt 6720 with a T-1 is very handy.
I am happy with my M4V7 upper. A Colt 6720 with a T-1 is also very handy.
Lightweight barrels will heat up faster, but they also will cool faster.
Groups will open up as the barrel heats up faster than a standard profile barrel will.
A good question to ask is what your intended use for the rifle is.
My intended use is three gunning and range time. I do not carry the weapon for any form of work but want something built to last. I want to get about a 30k round count out of the rifle. I know that the entire Vietnam war was fought with A1 pencil barrels so that inspires some confidence.
I just think we are getting back to opinions again, IE the possibility of suppressor issues. I would like to see some viable evidence that it is could have issues the heavy does not have. And correct me if I am wrong but isn't the heavy barrel necked down after the receiver to a pencil diameter and the increases back to heavy after the gas block?
Anyone had any warping issues due to heat? Anyone with a high round count like 9 or 10k?
I am pretty set on the light weight as I can't imagine Daniels Defense would put their name on something that would fail so easily. I just want to see a post from someone that has had an actual failure. Not trying to argue just discussing.
I still pull fist sized groups at 100yds from at Colt 6720 after the barrel is nice and warm from several hours of shooting. Never had any issues occur, at anytime yet. YMMV
The only issues that I have heard of is when putting a suppressor on a light weight barrel.
How would that create an issue? I am assuming accuracy would be affected when it gets real hot as the barrel would flex due to the extra weight on the end?
Anyone ever experienced this?
I don't recall reading any reports of a pencil barrel from a reputable manufacturer failing, and even the idea that it's "inferior" is debated.
He may be referring to the test where the M4 SOCOM barrel kept shooting on long after the standard profile barrel shut down. :confused:
There's no roll, for me, that a light weight/Pencil barrel fills.
Veterans Day and you boys are arguing barrel failure.. Its almost funny....weight difference from the truck to the range between a pencil and gov profile..just buy a mil spec barrel and call it a day
Actually the military is starting to adopt the pencil barrel back in some of their rifles. So the lightweight barrel is to be considered milspec? Correct me if I am wrong but milspec is the minimum qualifications a rifle can be built to and more pertaining to parts sizing than anything. I asked a rep at Daniels Defense why they do not use any magpul or tango down accessories IE grips etc on their rifles and was told they keep them milspec due to their gov contracts.
He may be referring to the test where the M4 SOCOM barrel kept shooting on long after the standard profile barrel shut down. :confused:
There's no roll, for me, that a light weight/Pencil barrel fills.
Well sort of, I just want to see where someone had one fail, warp, bend etc etc. All I can find are opinions which I like to see but would like to see some actual failure information but can't find any.
Speaking of opinions why no pencil barrels for you?
He may be referring to the test where the M4 SOCOM barrel kept shooting on long after the standard profile barrel shut down. :confused:
There's no roll, for me, that a light weight/Pencil barrel fills.
That test involved modifiying an M4 to shoot automatic and shooting magazines after magazine through it as quickly as possible.
At least for me, that type of situation has as much chance as happening as the zombie appocalypse.
That test involved modifiying an M4 to shoot automatic and shooting magazines after magazine through it as quickly as possible.
At least for me, that type of situation has as much chance as happening as the zombie appocalypse.
That's funny and I agree. Do you have a link to the test you are referring to? What barrels were used?
Speaking of opinions why no pencil barrels for you?
They make no sense for me....
I look at the barrel like this... The farther the target, the slower the rate of fire, and the heavier the barrel the better for making those shots.
The CLOSER the target, the higher the rate of fire, and the heavier the barrel (to a point of diminishing returns), the more heat it can absorb. Hot chambers/barrels were cited as the cause of Malfs in the development of the Mk262 round. Higher chamber pressures from a round sitting in the gun during the pause in heavy firefight caused failures to extract.
can't find the original, but this is part of it Utube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzfm4pYhIyY
It compared a standart M4 profile to a heavy profile barrel. This is the second, heavy barrel (SOCOM?). I can't find the first.
Found it
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/
can't find the original, but this is part of it Utube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzfm4pYhIyY
It compared a standart M4 profile to a heavy profile barrel. This is the second, heavy barrel (SOCOM?). I can't find the first.
Found it
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/
CRAZY. I think I'll be fine with the lightweight or heavy. That is abou as many rounds I will shoot in a year. LOL
Jerhelo, do you have a full-auto lower? Are you running a silencer? Do you want to shoot match ammo for MOA or better accuracy beyond 100yds?
If the answer to all of those is "no", then buy a lightweight barrel. If the answer to any of those is "yes" then consider a different barrel.
I am a proponent of a lightweight barrel on a carbine. It makes it much more pleasant to handle/carry. Heat/accuracy loss are non-issues for a weapon with a 2 or 4MOA red dot shooting 3-4 MOA ammo. Based on my personal experience, a hot Lightweight Daniel Defense barrel will still hold 1.7 MOA with match ammo.
Also, Trident1982 on this site has done some testing with a LW DD barrel. You can find both of our posts in the semi-auto precision forum.
Jerhelo, do you have a full-auto lower? Are you running a silencer? Do you want to shoot match ammo for MOA or better accuracy beyond 100yds?
If the answer to all of those is "no", then buy a lightweight barrel. If the answer to any of those is "yes" then consider a different barrel.
I am a proponent of a lightweight barrel on a carbine. It makes it much more pleasant to handle/carry. Heat/accuracy loss are non-issues for a weapon with a 2 or 4MOA red dot shooting 3-4 MOA ammo. Based on my personal experience, a hot Lightweight Daniel Defense barrel will still hold 1.7 MOA with match ammo.
Also, Trident1982 on this site has done some testing with a LW DD barrel. You can find both of our posts in the semi-auto precision forum.
Thank you, I will check it out, very helpful.
bullittmcqueen
11-12-12, 10:01
TRIDENT82 recently documented accuracy on a Daniel Defense 14.5 pencil barrel out to 6 or 700 yards or something crazy like that. The barrel got heated up pretty well, he used a thermometer to document barrel temps. But he doesn't abuse or flog his gear, so it wasnt pushed to failure or whatever you want to call it. That sorta stuff is stupid if you ask me. Let DD do it if they want to prove it.
How does anyone think the gov vs lightweight profiles are any different concerning suppressor use? They are the same minimum diameter (under the handguards).
If you were to argue SOCOM or mid-weight or custom profiles that's another thing. But suppressor use shouldn't really be brought up for LW conversation as only the part you can see is thicker on the standard profile.
As far as heat goes, the LW should cool faster, so that should be equally important as heat up faster. I think personally, for a truck or carry gun, me not being mil, the LW would work fine. My Recce has a pretty heavy barrel though.
MarkM, how about the gun you'll carry and rarely shoot at any distance?
I am a proponent of a lightweight barrel on a carbine. It makes it much more pleasant to handle/carry. Heat/accuracy loss are non-issues for a weapon with a 2 or 4MOA red dot shooting 3-4 MOA ammo. Based on my personal experience, a hot Lightweight Daniel Defense barrel will still hold 1.7 MOA with match ammo.
I don't have reams of data, and a sample size of only one but, my BCM 16" mid LW has been printing at/slightly under 1 MOA at 200 yds with Speer 24448 Gold Dot.
My gov't profile guns' POI don't change whether they're hot or not.
POI will change, however, with a pencil barrel when subjected to long strings of fire. I usually see some vertical stringing in the 3-4 inch range once the barrel gets heated up. Practically speaking, this is of little concern.
Note: I suppose it's within the realm of possibility that you'd have to run the gun hard for a couple magazines (e.g. a "break contact" situation) then almost immediately be pressed into having to take single precision shot at range, but this is about the only scenario I can fathom where a pencil barrel would prove to be a hindrance.
FWIW
As ASH556, and Bullittmcqueen noted already, you might want to check out this thread for more info.
Evaluating Daniel Defense's 14.5" CHF LW 5.56 barrel... (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1378199#post1378199)
Marler5811
11-12-12, 15:58
I'm a huge proponent of our Lightweight Barrels. I use them exclusively in both of my rifles. I have a 14.5" LW Midlength in one, and our 16" in my 3 Gun Rifle. I've never had any issues with the accuracy of either. With my 14.5" LW Barrel I've acheived 1.5" groups at 100 yards with M855 and a 4 MOA Micro T1. More than acceptable for what I need/use it for and I'm certain the groups would be shrink with better ammo and optic. Will a LW barrel outperform a Govt or M4 Profile Barrel in regards to accuracy? Probably not, but the spread isn't much.
From a longevity standpoint, both will perform the same given they are treated equally. All of our barrels are Cold Hammer Forged and have a typical life of 15-20K rounds while maintaining POA/POI. You can get more out of our barrels with proper cleaning and maintence. We even have reports of 35K+ from a couple customers. My pockets aren't that deep and I don't have that much time on my hands so I can't validate that claim. Wish I could though!
S/F
Joe
How would that create an issue? I am assuming accuracy would be affected when it gets real hot as the barrel would flex due to the extra weight on the end?
Anyone ever experienced this?
Sorry should have been more specific. I was referring to the POI shift when adding a suppressor to the end of a light weight barrel.
I'm a huge proponent of our Lightweight Barrels. I use them exclusively in both of my rifles. I have a 14.5" LW Midlength in one, and our 16" in my 3 Gun Rifle. I've never had any issues with the accuracy of either. With my 14.5" LW Barrel I've acheived 1.5" groups at 100 yards with M855 and a 4 MOA Micro T1. More than acceptable for what I need/use it for and I'm certain the groups would be shrink with better ammo and optic. Will a LW barrel outperform a Govt or M4 Profile Barrel in regards to accuracy? Probably not, but the spread isn't much.
From a longevity standpoint, both will perform the same given they are treated equally. All of our barrels are Cold Hammer Forged and have a typical life of 15-20K rounds while maintaining POA/POI. You can get more out of our barrels with proper cleaning and maintence. We even have reports of 35K+ from a couple customers. My pockets aren't that deep and I don't have that much time on my hands so I can't validate that claim. Wish I could though!
S/F
Joe
+1 (and a few more characters)
Lightweight barrels will heat up faster, but they also will cool faster.
Groups will open up as the barrel heats up faster than a standard profile barrel will.
A good question to ask is what your intended use for the rifle is.
Only in the way a 5 gallon bucket will fill up faster and empty faster than a 10 gallon bucket.
A heavier profile barrel is thicker at the chamber end and will resist erosion from heat better. Still, a lightweight barrel will feel livelier and give good service life and will be more pleasant to lug around
I put a DD 14.5 LT WT in this build and it is a joy to carry and drive between targets. The fit and finish on the barrel was noticeably excellent. I almost hated covering it with the Noveske NSR rail :p I have not done any serious accuracy testing and need to at some point with the barrel cold, hot and smokin hot. I did notice that it seemed to surprise me how much POI shift there was when the AAC M4-2000 was on it. IIRC it was 6-7", but with my brother shooting it and not me, so do not hold me to that. This was a build for an 11 yr old to hump around for pigs and deer and now I want one;) Here are some pics to see what it looks like with my Lil'Bro tote'n it.
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_6665.jpg
FYI, The Guinness is an ashtray and not for drinking
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_0840-Version2.jpg
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_6690.jpg
It'll get the job done:D
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_1355.jpg
I put a DD 14.5 LT WT in this build and it is a joy to carry and drive between targets. The fit and finish on the barrel was noticeably excellent. I almost hated covering it with the Noveske NSR rail :p I have not done any serious accuracy testing and need to at some point with the barrel cold, hot and smokin hot. I did notice that it seemed to surprise me how much POI shift there was when the AAC M4-2000 was on it. IIRC it was 6-7", but with my brother shooting it and not me, so do not hold me to that. This was a build for an 11 yr old to hump around for pigs and deer and now I want one;) Here are some pics to see what it looks like with my Lil'Bro tote'n it.
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_6665.jpg
FYI, The Guinness is an ashtray and not for drinking
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_0840-Version2.jpg
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_6690.jpg
It'll get the job done:D
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_1355.jpg
I bought the Daniels defense lightweight version 5. The barrel is definitely slimmer than I expected. I feel like I am going to bend this damn thing. I hope it is durable, we shall see.
I put a DD 14.5 LT WT in this build and it is a joy to carry and drive between targets. The fit and finish on the barrel was noticeably excellent. I almost hated covering it with the Noveske NSR rail :p I have not done any serious accuracy testing and need to at some point with the barrel cold, hot and smokin hot. I did notice that it seemed to surprise me how much POI shift there was when the AAC M4-2000 was on it. IIRC it was 6-7", but with my brother shooting it and not me, so do not hold me to that. This was a build for an 11 yr old to hump around for pigs and deer and now I want one;) Here are some pics to see what it looks like with my Lil'Bro tote'n it.
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_6665.jpg
FYI, The Guinness is an ashtray and not for drinking
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_0840-Version2.jpg
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_6690.jpg
It'll get the job done:D
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_1355.jpg
Are you running a suppressor on a lightweight barrel? Any issues with heat or drooping of the barrel when it gets hot? have you done multie mag drops with the lightweight barrel? I was nervous about running the noveske large break let alone a suppressor. The people at Daniels Defense told me NOT to run a suppressor on the lightweight barrel, only the standard muzzle break.
Are you running a suppressor on a lightweight barrel? Any issues with heat or drooping of the barrel when it gets hot? have you done multie mag drops with the lightweight barrel? I was nervous about running the noveske large break let alone a suppressor. The people at Daniels Defense told me NOT to run a suppressor on the lightweight barrel, only the standard muzzle break.
You'll see more POI shift as you heat the barrel, simple as that. If you're doing mag dumps with a suppressor anyway (seriously, why?) then that's the wrong barrel. If you're not trying to see if you can cook the suppressor by running it super hot, even a LW is fine.
Also, with something as well rounded as a BattleComp, why not just run that?
You'll see more POI shift as you heat the barrel, simple as that. If you're doing mag dumps with a suppressor anyway (seriously, why?) then that's the wrong barrel. If you're not trying to see if you can cook the suppressor by running it super hot, even a LW is fine.
Also, with something as well rounded as a BattleComp, why not just run that?
I plan to run the battle comp that came on the rifle just was surprised to see you running the surpressor on the Lghtweight barrel. I had asked the people at Daniels Defense about running the noveske muzzle break and they advised against that with the lightweight barrel and definitely said so NOT run a surpressor with it.
Just worried I am going to bend this thing. Did not realize how slim the barrel was until I got it.
You'll see more POI shift as you heat the barrel, simple as that. If you're doing mag dumps with a suppressor anyway (seriously, why?) then that's the wrong barrel. If you're not trying to see if you can cook the suppressor by running it super hot, even a LW is fine.
Also, with something as well rounded as a BattleComp, why not just run that?
Jerhelo it is just as TehLlama has said, I didn't build this gun for classes or zombies, but for a young shooter to hunt pigs with... no extreme mag dumps and yes the suppressor does cause a lower impact.
If you really think you are going to bend the barrel then I suggest you get a hard jump case for hard landings or stop parachuting altogether:p otherwise stop worrying about it.
Jerhelo it is just as TehLlama has said, I didn't build this gun for classes or zombies, but for a young shooter to hunt pigs with... no extreme mag dumps and yes the suppressor does cause a lower impact.
If you really think you are going to bend the barrel then I suggest you get a hard jump case for hard landings or stop parachuting altogether:p otherwise stop worrying about it.
Funny. Just was slimmer than I expected. I actually ordered an extra gov profile barrel in case I have issues with it. I am all about the weight savings of the lightweight but do plan to attend some carbine classes.
I want to get about a 30k round count out of the rifle.
On the low side 1k rounds of 556 is going for $250ish +...
So, some conservative quick math says
30 x $250 = $7500
A new CHF FSB LW DD barrel is $286 from Adco as of right now.
Even in the event of barrel failure after 9-10 cases, you're looking at $2500 in ammo for $286 barrel.
This reasoning led me to stop worrying about my LW barrels. I think this debate falls into the shoot more/worry less.
On the low side 1k rounds of 556 is going for $250ish +...
So, some conservative quick math says
30 x $250 = $7500
A new CHF FSB LW DD barrel is $286 from Adco as of right now.
Even in the event of barrel failure after 9-10 cases, you're looking at $2500 in ammo for $286 barrel.
This reasoning led me to stop worrying about my LW barrels. I think this debate falls into the shoot more/worry less.
I am not so worried about it anymore. I did buy a spare gov profile barrel though in case I do have an issue with the lightweight. We will see. It was just not quite what I expected but I have never heard anything bad about Daniels Defense rifles. Got the version 5 lightweight.
I am not so worried about it anymore. I did buy a spare gov profile barrel though in case I do have an issue with the lightweight. We will see. It was just not quite what I expected but I have never heard anything bad about Daniels Defense rifles. Got the version 5 lightweight.
Guess I missed that. I think you'll enjoy it immensely. GL.
Be wary - a spare barrel and a spare stripped lower is liable to eat your checkbook and turn itself into a 'spare' rifle. Just know that.
I've abused my V5LW upper quite a bit - 700rds in one day at one point. The thing might be thin, but think about it - that's 4150 CMV steel that's been hammer forged. They are tough little SOB's, and by the time you've worn it out by legitimate use (not emptying SF hundo mags through it in sequence) you'll have spent thousands in ammo, so much so that barrel replacement cost becomes irrelevant.
Be wary - a spare barrel and a spare stripped lower is liable to eat your checkbook and turn itself into a 'spare' rifle. Just know that.
I've abused my V5LW upper quite a bit - 700rds in one day at one point. The thing might be thin, but think about it - that's 4150 CMV steel that's been hammer forged. They are tough little SOB's, and by the time you've worn it out by legitimate use (not emptying SF hundo mags through it in sequence) you'll have spent thousands in ammo, so much so that barrel replacement cost becomes irrelevant.
It's funny you mention that. I have a spare lower, in fact minus a rail I have enough parts to build another rifle. I don't plan on mag dumping but want something that is built to withstand that sort of abuse.
I haven't done mag dumps through mine at a target and measured groupings, but over the summer in 105 degree we put 300-500 rounds in a very short time, the barrel was extremely hot and several of us were still shooting skeet with the rifle. That's good enough for me and my uses.
I wasn't aware that dd did not reccomend the use of a suppressors on their lw barrels, might need to make a call since I was planning on grabbing one in a few months
I'd read this (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=96204&highlight=LW+fad) post for a discussion on LW barrels
I have a DD pencil barrel and a Noveske "lightweight" barrel. I have several thousand thru the Veske and no issues at all not 1.
I only have about 500-550 thru the DD but also no issues at all.
I also do not do 100 round mag dumps just because its a waste of ammo. I have done several classes with the Veske and it gets hot but no problems. I personally think your worrying about something that you don't need to be so concerned with. Shoot it and enjoy.
just my .02
I have a DD pencil barrel and a Noveske "lightweight" barrel. I have several thousand thru the Veske and no issues at all not 1.
I only have about 500-550 thru the DD but also no issues at all.
I also do not do 100 round mag dumps just because its a waste of ammo. I have done several classes with the Veske and it gets hot but no problems. I personally think your worrying about something that you don't need to be so concerned with. Shoot it and enjoy.
just my .02
My concerns are all but gone, I am comfortable with the decision to get the lightweight barrel. I was just a little surprised as to how thin it really was. I did in fact order an extra barrel in a gov profile just in case but don't plan to install it unless I ever have issues with the lightweight. Considering I have enough parts minus a rail I will more than likely build another ar with the gov profile.
My concerns are all but gone, I am comfortable with the decision to get the lightweight barrel. I was just a little surprised as to how thin it really was. I did in fact order an extra barrel in a gov profile just in case but don't plan to install it unless I ever have issues with the lightweight. Considering I have enough parts minus a rail I will more than likely build another ar with the gov profile.
At least you were warned :meeting:
In all seriousness, it's not a bad thing at all, and for the price of the stripped DD barrels, it's hardly money spent badly. Hell, people pay three times that every day on uppers that are straight junk anyway.
At least you were warned :meeting:
In all seriousness, it's not a bad thing at all, and for the price of the stripped DD barrels, it's hardly money spent badly. Hell, people pay three times that every day on uppers that are straight junk anyway.
Warned, the majority said get the lightweight. I figured it would be good to have a spare barrel considering the made dash for ar's right now. I hope I made the right decision with the light weight. I hate second guessing myself.
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