Real world data on the SA80

[Littlelebowski]

From our esteemed moderator and industry professional, Failure2Stop

F2S taught CQB and small arms to the Brits and had the opportunity to shoot this; actually use it for years. He was sent to the Royal Marines in between combat rotations with the US Marine Corps.

An excerpt:

The lack of adjustability of the LOP (length of pull) makes the gun sub-optimal for CQB. Everybody touts the thing for being so short, but the LOP is barely shorter than an M16A2. Combined with the zero amount of eye-relief of the SUSAT; CQB work with it when wearing armor sucks unless you want to rely solely on the laser (if you get one) or until the ACOGS come in (which have a MRD piggy-backed). The long LOP prevents the 3-man from carrying in the high port, which results in a less than speedy 3-man's gun in the room/fight.

The rest of his discourse is here.

[Ed L.]

The SA-80 has had a long history of issues:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/oc...tary.jamesmeek

from: http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/SA-80:

"Designed by the Ignorant, Built by the Incompetent, Issued to the Unfortunate."

It seems the gun earned the nickname of the "civil servant" because it doesn't work and you can't fire it.

More info:

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/sa80.pdf

And here is a comprehensive history of the gun if you have an afternoon to read it: http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_SA80.html


I am sure you can find negative articles on the M4/M-16 on the web, many of which reflect the early years in Vietnam before initial issues were corrected. But The criticisms of the SA-80/SA-85 are substantive and are far greater in depth than anything with the AR--plus there are a lot of them that don't seem to be addresssed by the upgrades/corrections to the SA-80.

[Nightvisionary]

Interesting read. I suppose the SA80 was a more practical weapon for patrolling the streets of Northern Ireland when it replaced the 46 inch long L1A1 in the 80's.

[Winnerkd]

I don't know how many of you are fans of the British motoring show ''Top Gear'' but Jermey Clarkson is a huge military buff, in fact, he did a whole show dedicated to firearms in which he is suited up with the British Armed Forces and goes through a exercise in urban combat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4e7KBpkS8E

[SteyrAUG]

I think of how many people were upset because we went from the M-14 to the M-16 compounded by early teething problems when the M-16 was fielded in Vietnam. Can you imagine going from the SLR (L1A1) to the SA-80 (L85A1), had to be lots of unhappy campers.

Factor in the UK ability to make even a decent design suck via budget building, (eg. Aussie AUGs are pretty crappy compared to Austrian AUGs despite have a Steyr contract facility). I honestly think the SA-80 (EM2) design has merit and if manufactured to a higher standard (and not just a retrofit by HK) could have been as viable as the AUG or the FAMAS.

[Nightvisionary]

I think of how many people were upset because we went from the M-14 to the M-16 compounded by early teething problems when the M-16 was fielded in Vietnam. Can you imagine going from the SLR (L1A1) to the SA-80 (L85A1), had to be lots of unhappy campers.

Factor in the UK ability to make even a decent design suck via budget building, (eg. Aussie AUGs are pretty crappy compared to Austrian AUGs despite have a Steyr contract facility). I honestly think the SA-80 (EM2) design has merit and if manufactured to a higher standard (and not just a retrofit by HK) could have been as viable as the AUG or the FAMAS.

I suppose the best the Brits can hope for is to wait for the eventual procurement of a quality US or German made replacement now that RSAF Enfield is long defunct.

[2-BPM]

I think "modularity" has become even more important in firearms design these last 20 years then ever before. the problem is, everyone keeps updating legacy platforms to try and fill the current needs. the brits will soldier on with their crappy bullpup, and then beyond a doubt replace it with another lacking design. Its also the fact that America has a strong shooting community that helps push along all the innovation that keeps weapons development moving forward. i'm sure lack of experience with weapons hinders british gun designers.

[variablebinary]

Interesting read. I suppose the SA80 was a more practical weapon for patrolling the streets of Northern Ireland when it replaced the 46 inch long L1A1 in the 80's.

Nah, it was a turd from day one, and was never a "better solution" for anything.

Among "Cold War" 5.56 weapons introduced in the 70's and 80's, it is probably the worst and embarrassing to the British armed forces.

I know one moron on XCR forum that says it's the greatest thing ever, but I spent 3 years in the UK among British military, and not a single soul had a positive thing to say about it.

[sgtrock82]

Excellent info, Ive always wondered what a real shooter with real world experience would think about the SA80/L85 (or whatever its real nomenclature is) vs books and theories. Its ashame to have it ruin the name enfield long associated with the excellent No1 and No4 bolt rifles.

[Iraqgunz]

I was working with lots of Brits on my last contract and most of them had nothing good to say about the SA80. It almost makes a Mini14 attractive, almost.