Glock vs Springfield XD

Slater · #1 05-05-2008, 01:46 PM

This is a discussion going on over at the 1911 forums. Evidently Glock has made an offer that's tough to refuse.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=199285

Heck, I'd take them up on it.

ToddG · #2 05-05-2008, 06:36 PM

I have to say I'm surprised Glock is pushing this issue. I've dealt with agencies which were saddled with guns they didn't want by bureaucrats who never touched a pistol. It's ugly. How long do you think it will take the FIs in that department to find no end of problems with the Glocks they're forced to accept?

Glock has kept some major agencies by giving guns away for free recently ... New York State Police is the best example. But the guys in NY wanted Glocks. This sounds totally different.

Should be interesting to watch ...

Skintop911 · #3 05-05-2008, 10:33 PM

Such deals aren't unique to Glock, but they get the most notice for it. Others pushing new product aimed squarely at Glock are inking some pretty...favorable...deals as well.

The transition from the well-established Safe-Action/DAO G23 to the marginal single-action XD presents administration, armorers, and trainers a plethora of issues to contemplate.

On the upside, if they get them for free, they will likely get what they pay for.

ToddG · #4 05-05-2008, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skintop911

Such deals aren't unique to Glock, but they get the most notice for it. Others pushing new product aimed squarely at Glock are inking some pretty...favorable...deals as well.

There's a tremendous difference between (1) negotiating a sweet deal with a department that wants your pistol and (2) running to city hall in an attempt to block the department from switching to a competitor.

If you mean that deals such as what happened with NYSP, I'd like to see any report of any other gun company that gave away 5,000 pistols plus mags, holsters, plus training and duty ammo to an LE agency for no money, no trade-in weapons, nada.

the1911fan · #5 05-06-2008, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToddG

If you mean that deals such as what happened with NYSP, I'd like to see any report of any other gun company that gave away 5,000 pistols plus mags, holsters, plus training and duty ammo to an LE agency for no money, no trade-in weapons, nada.

I'd have to say that particular handout is unique to Glock

variablebinary · #6 05-07-2008, 04:03 AM

Glock will make up the money by refurbing the trade ins.

Personally I think a person in the line of duty would need to be on some serious drugs to ditch the Glock for the XD, especially since by all accounts, the Glocks are operating without issue.

If they were failing, that is one thing, but they arent...

the1911fan · #7 05-07-2008, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by variablebinary

Glock will make up the money by refurbing the trade ins.

Personally I think a person in the line of duty would need to be on some serious drugs to ditch the Glock for the XD, especially since by all accounts, the Glocks are operating without issue.

If they were failing, that is one thing, but they arent...

We're having a failure rate of 8-10% with our G22/23's with ANY light attached

The only Glocks I trust with weapon mounted lights attached are the 9mm's

Striker5 · #8 05-07-2008, 08:28 AM

The last four people I have talked to who are buying pistols went w/ the XD, in .40 and .45 flavor. None of them had heard of the M&P pistols when I suggested them as an alternative and none of them wanted a Glock.

Not intended as a bash on the XD. I was on the fence a few years ago between the Glock 17 and the XD9. I went w/ the 17 because of its long and extremely solid track record. As I have sat at the feet of the gurus (electronically) and the more I have shot, the happier I have been that I made that choice.

The main way XD is closing the distance on Glock is marketing. Lots of safety features (for people that are into that sort of thing), the XD 45/case/holster deal. They have a long way to catch up but they are gaining.

markm · #9 05-07-2008, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striker5

The main way XD is closing the distance on Glock is marketing.

Indeed. Springfield is masterful at marketing. Too bad they don't put all that skill into making good guns.

Wayne Dobbs · #10 05-07-2008, 10:18 AM

Glock's big strength (besides their market share and brand recognition) is their customer service in the field. Their LE district managers "fight fires" and comp lots of free small parts to various PDs and their armorer staffs. They put on the armorer school and instructor workshops. All of these marketing and customer service actions keep them well established.

Smith is starting to do essentially the same thing with the M&P products, which is no surprise given that most of their staff are Glock alumni.

Springfield doesn't do ANY of that and you have to send guns with problems back to the factory. That is a huge weakness for SA from my view.

Gutshot John · #11 05-07-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demigod

Indeed. Springfield is masterful at marketing. Too bad they don't put all that skill into making good guns.

Ain't that the truth.

variablebinary · #12 05-07-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the1911fan

We're having a failure rate of 8-10% with our G22/23's with ANY light attached

The only Glocks I trust with weapon mounted lights attached are the 9mm's

That's all good and fine. Everyone has a story, but in their own words...

"Santiago said there was nothing wrong with the Glocks, but the department needs new weapons be fore a failure in the old guns leaves an officer at risk.

"No one has an ax to grind," Santiago said. "No one has an agenda."

"Since we went to the Glock we haven't had one failure," Dzurkoc said.

If I were a tax payer in that distinct I would be annoyed. It doesn't sound like there was any process or methodology in the selection process, other than a couple of cops saying "look at my hands. ZOMGZ the XD is more ergo like the magazine ad says"

If there is a need to move toward a .45, how many other guns were tested? M&P? HK45/USP? FNP45? SIG 220? Where are the test results?

Dzurkoc said he wasn't contacted by the department during the process of testing and selecting the guns. He questioned why this was the case, noting that he spent six years as firearms instructor for the Trenton Police Academy and has served as the range master for the department's firearms training.

It really sounds like a Scam or some flatfoot wanting to make his new favorite range toy the standard.

What are the reasons for the change, other than there are no reasons. And sorry, how the gun feels in one cop's pretty little hands is not a reason

Furthermore, since we are talking our own experiences, XD's are garbage. More than half of the XD's I've fired, or encountered have had FTE issues. I dont like the M&P but at least they work...XD's are just crap

ToddG · #13 05-07-2008, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by variablebinary

What are the reasons for the change, other than there are no reasons. And sorry, how the gun feels in one cop's pretty little hands is not a reason

You're making these assumptions based on two newspaper articles? Just because there was no information in the article doesn't mean there was no reason, no testing, etc.

Neither should a department be required to keep old guns until after they have a catastrophic problem. How old are the department's Glocks? Doesn't sound like Glock is arguing they should keep the old guns, either ... Glock is just offering to give them guns for a free trade.

I wonder if the $200,000 number that is getting tossed about accounts for any trade-in value toward the XD's. How big is the department?

It very well may be a case of "new guys want new guns," and personal preference is always a factor in any procurement. But it's premature to suggest it's all some kind of shady deal just because they chose a weapon you don't personally like. (I'm not a big fan of XDs, either, fwiw)

warpigM-4 · #14 05-07-2008, 11:53 AM

but I like my XD 45 never had a FTE small round count though only about 250

Skintop911 · #15 05-07-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striker5

The main way XD is closing the distance on Glock is marketing. Lots of safety features (for people that are into that sort of thing), the XD 45/case/holster deal. They have a long way to catch up but they are gaining.

The XD isn't even a blip on the radar by comparison, much less a threat to any GI marketshare. XD's best hope is lead the low end offerings.

the1911fan · #16 05-07-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by variablebinary

What are the reasons for the change, other than there are no reasons. And sorry, how the gun feels in one cop's pretty little hands is not a reason

The ADA (Federal Government) and a stack of union grievances would not agree with your opinion...it's considered a reasonable accomodation.

Do not like either gun in question but I do believe in giving an officer a gun they shoot accurately...I've personally observed females not be able to shoot a DA/SA USP 45 and be able to shoot a 1911 with a short trigger/flat MSH very well. Same officer very different result.

rubberneck · #17 05-07-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demigod

Indeed. Springfield is masterful at marketing. Too bad they don't put all that skill into making good guns.

I don't know about that. I have four Springfield's (2 1911's and 2 Xd's) and never had a problem with any them and they get shot a lot. I had a G35 that I couldn't get rid of fast enough and a Sig 229 that didn't like hollow points even after two return trips to the factory. I guess everyone has a different experience.

Kilroy · #18 05-10-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToddG

If you mean that deals such as what happened with NYSP, I'd like to see any report of any other gun company that gave away 5,000 pistols plus mags, holsters, plus training and duty ammo to an LE agency for no money, no trade-in weapons, nada.

Do you have a source for that information? Perhaps something stronger then anecdotal? It'd be a good reference for a current agency project.

Thanks!

Palmguy · #19 05-10-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by variablebinary

Furthermore, since we are talking our own experiences, XD's are garbage. More than half of the XD's I've fired, or encountered have had FTE issues. I dont like the M&P but at least they work...XD's are just crap

And in my own anecdotal experience, XDs have been more reliable (with no non-shooter induced malfunctions) than the Glocks/M&Ps that I've fired.

Kilroy · #20 05-10-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demigod

Indeed. Springfield is masterful at marketing. Too bad they don't put all that skill into making good guns.

And they were for many years, per their advertising, The Oldest Name in American Firearms but then I think someone called them on that.

The XD does have some serious, perhaps fatal, quirks thanks to the grip safety.

A number of rental ranges have reported that scant pressure on the grip safety can cause a stoppage that cannot easily be cleared.

A prominent range & gun store in the US Southwest discourages use of the XD in their training programs due to the grip safety causing stoppages and affecting some clearance drills.

And you'd think that a single action pistol (the XD) would have a better trigger pull. Perhaps they are trying to hide that fact by giving it a spongy pull.