April 24, 1980

[SteyrAUG]

I was just a wee lad, but severely disliked Carter's politics and policy, which has only been reinforced over the past 40-something years. With regards to Eagle Claw, at least he had the balls to try, and he took full responsibility.

Yes he did, but the real problem is he attempted diplomacy far too long. He should have realized if a country can't even respect your embassy, there can be no real diplomacy. He suffered from Jimmy Carter syndrome which is basically "I'm a reasonable, rationale person and then assuming everyone else must be also." I don't think he could even conceptualize the extremist views of the average Iranian, much less the militant, martyristic views of the revolutionaries.

Regarding bolded/italicized, we did not have SOCOM, we didn't have special operations unified commanders, we didn't have 160th SOAR, we didn't have dedicated capability. That's why we had to use every branch. Out of those ashes came those things.

I understand that, I even understand that Delta as also pretty new. But Eagle Claw still seemed needlessly over complex. While on a much smaller scale we were able to pull off stuff like Son Toy, which all things considered had a high probability for failure. But it did seem like Carter tried to include everyone and give everyone a meaningful role over letting the experts say what they needed and just doing that. I'm not here to criticize Carter, I just don't think he knew how to use the military as effective as other presidents. Reagan also didn't have SOCCOM but he generally knew how to use the military to it's own best advantage.

[chuckman]

I understand that, I even understand that Delta as also pretty new. But Eagle Claw still seemed needlessly over complex. While on a much smaller scale we were able to pull off stuff like Son Toy, which all things considered had a high probability for failure. But it did seem like Carter tried to include everyone and give everyone a meaningful role over letting the experts say what they needed and just doing that. I'm not here to criticize Carter, I just don't think he knew how to use the military as effective as other presidents. Reagan also didn't have SOCCOM but he generally knew how to use the military to it's own best advantage.

It's hard for me to judge the scale of that kind of op and complexity. According to Beckwith, Kyle, and Flynt, in their books it sounded as if Carter gave the military carte blanche and stayed out of meddling, and the plan was just the way it was because they didn't have a better way.

As for Reagan, I liked Reagan, and because I was the son of a Marine and a child of the 80s, those years informed my decision to join the military. That said, his use of the military was pretty atrocious at times. RE: Carter, I don't know that I recall his use of the military any other time aside from Eagle Claw, but his defense (and intelligence) policies were 100% irrefutably horrible. He absolutely gutted those two communities in terms of money, personnel, and tech.

[yoni]

I am going from memory, but I think Eagle Claw was overly complicated and then the really big problem was everyone wanted in on the act.
.
The issue with the helicopters if I remember correctly was that they were off of a ship and suffered from maintenance issues.But this failure resulted in the creation of the Night Stalkers.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Lighten up Francis, it was in jest.

If you have an AARP card (50yo minimum) you are less than a decade younger than me.....hardly a spring chicken!

That is my point and why I get your Francis comment, but barely.

Why would you have a card from a freedom-hating group like that?

Free lunch container.

Crap started showing up at my house. Ends up my wife signed me up when she busted through my 25yo times two barrier.

Carter got screwed by the end of 60s culture war and ‘losing’ Vietnam along with the rise of the OPEC cartel and Arab hostility. He might have survived one or the other, but not both. If there was a cause of death on his presidency, it was ‘inflation’. That seems to be coming back…

On Eagle Claw, C130s full of rescued hostages trying the RATO out of soccer stadiums would have been…. Epic.

[ABNAK]

If you remove the Desert 1 debacle the things that were planned in order to ultimately succeed were pretty ballsy and perhaps a bit far-fetched. The odds of them being able to pull it off were pretty slim IMHO.

I'll give them an A+ for creativity though.

[T2C]

I am going from memory, but I think Eagle Claw was overly complicated and then the really big problem was everyone wanted in on the act.
.
The issue with the helicopters if I remember correctly was that they were off of a ship and suffered from maintenance issues.But this failure resulted in the creation of the Night Stalkers.

If I heard correctly, the different commanders involved in planning and preparation were not forthcoming with information needed to properly prepare for and execute the rescue operation. IIRC different steps should have been taken to prepare the aircraft involved in the operation. I am not an aviation rate, so I can't intelligently elaborate on what the Airdales complained about afterwards.

I do believe the 160th SOAR was created as a result of the problems associated with the operation.

[ABNAK]

If I heard correctly, the different commanders involved in planning and preparation were not forthcoming with information needed to properly prepare for and execute the rescue operation. IIRC different steps should have been taken to prepare the aircraft involved in the operation. I am not an aviation rate, so I can't intelligently elaborate on what the Airdales complained about afterwards.

I do believe the 160th SOAR was created as a result of the problems associated with the operation.

In addition to Eagle Claw, I have read that Operation Urgent Fury (Grenada) also involved everyone wanting in on the action. Of course it was only 3+ years after the debacle at Desert One so there were still some hiccups.

[SteyrAUG]

In addition to Eagle Claw, I have read that Operation Urgent Fury (Grenada) also involved everyone wanting in on the action. Of course it was only 3+ years after the debacle at Desert One so there were still some hiccups.

Even as late as 1989 we were making the same kind of mistakes. Mostly because of their fame for "getting it done", NSW team 4 was tasked with taking Punta Paitilla Airport during Just Cause when really it was the kind of thing Rangers excel at. Add in some basic miscommunication on the ground and a bunch of guys got caught in the open with unfortunate results.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Even as late as 1989 we were making the same kind of mistakes. Mostly because of their fame for "getting it done", NSW team 4 was tasked with taking Punta Paitilla Airport during Just Cause when really it was the kind of thing Rangers excel at. Add in some basic miscommunication on the ground and a bunch of guys got caught in the open with unfortunate results.

I've heard that many times from different places about Rangers. When and where did this come in as doctrine? I can understand wanting airfields, but why the Rangers? What about the rangers makes them the go-to and not just airborne troops? Coming out of WWII, I would think that if anyone, Marine Recon would be tasked with it after the island jumping campaign in the Pacific.

I also hear about the Ranger Battalion, but there is more than one, right? Or is it one is on standby all the time.

[SteyrAUG]

I've heard that many times from different places about Rangers. When and where did this come in as doctrine? I can understand wanting airfields, but why the Rangers? What about the rangers makes them the go-to and not just airborne troops? Coming out of WWII, I would think that if anyone, Marine Recon would be tasked with it after the island jumping campaign in the Pacific.

I also hear about the Ranger Battalion, but there is more than one, right? Or is it one is on standby all the time.

In general terms, it's about having more experience with that kind of stuff vs. NSW which has their unique skill sets.

https://www.army.mil/ranger/

The 75th Ranger Regiment

75th Ranger Regiment

The 75th Ranger Regiment is a lethal, agile and flexible force, capable of conducting many complex, joint special operations missions. Today's Ranger regiment is the Army's premier direct-action raid force. Each of the four geographically dispersed Ranger battalions is always combat ready, mentally and physically tough, and prepared to fight our country's adversaries. Their capabilities include conducting airborne and air assault operations, seizing key terrain such as airfields, destroying strategic facilities, and capturing or killing enemies of the nation. Rangers are capable of conducting squad through regimental-size operations and are resourced to maintain exceptional proficiency, experience and readiness. The regiment remains an all-volunteer force with an intensive screening and selection process followed by combat-focused training. The 75th Ranger Regiment is a proud unit and a team of teams - serving the nation.