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Industry Professional
When dealing with an armed attacker within contact shot distance, a good rule of thumb is to try to apply the 3 C's - Capture, Control, Counter. This means:Originally Posted by Navigating Collapse
Capture the weapon bearing limb
Control the weapon-bearing limb
Counter-attack
Notice I didnt put a specific number sequence beside each one. Sometimes you will need to counter attack prior to being able to capture and control the limb.
Member
It's interesting though about the hand mechanics. A lot of wounds end up hands/forearms either from defensive gestures or from getting your gun in front of center mass. My two regular carries are a P228, and HK P7M13.
For me, taking the situational/tactics issues out of it makes me think a bit (and nervously too). Strictly mechanically, with the P7, I think this shooters mechanical problem would have been exacerbated for a P7 shooter. I know we're a rare breed, and getting rarer. But IIRC, the actuating/safety squeeze for the P7 is 14-15 pounds, while maintaining safety engagement is 4-5. It takes some hand/forearm strength and mechanics to make that work. I wonder if I could have gotten a P7 working in that scenario. I've done a lot of formal training with it, 1911's, Glocks, Sigs but this never entirely crossed my mind, which seems stupid now in retrospect.
Still, the P7 is usually backup in a maxpedition attache, and the P7 is ideal for off body carry, but still...
Glad you're ok. and I too want to know what happened to BG#1.
Senior Member
A few observations;
I think the initial inability to react was/is a training issue, as well as a mindset issue.
The OP appears to have been in "Oh shit, this is really happening" mode, which leads to a person being a bit stuck in the OOD part of the OODA loop.
Training, both range and FoF, greatly reduce this tendency (we used to see it in rookies when they first hit the street, now we don't anymore, due to the training we do in-house).
I concur that the time to move would have best been at the very beginning, bad guy with gun to side while wearing ski mask = shoot the shit out of him right now, in my book anyway.
Voice commands given in many robbery situations lead to shot good guys way too often, especially if things are close and one has no cover.
I don't think one is or should be required to give the bad guy the option of the first shot if the bad guys so chooses.
A high powered flashlight is always a good thing to carry.
Empty hand tactics may be what one needs at the moment to safely clear a way to deploy one's pistol.
I don't think the 1911 being carried was a real issue, it being so easy to shoot well may have led to the only hit on the bad guy being made. Other guys, such as a DA revolver, may not have been fired at all by the OP due to weakness in the hand precluding him being able to pull the trigger.
This incident is an example of why the whole "limp wrist" argument by some companies to explain their pistols not working is complete BS. One may be shot, down, shooting from a non-standard position, etc. The pistol should cycle in these circumstances, otherwise it is a range toy and not a combat pistol.
Read this for how I would prefer to hear a robbery in progress to end;
http://www.wsmv.com/news/22950700/detail.html
Officer Shoots 3 Robbery Suspects In Brentwood
Suspected Thieves Hospitalized After Attempted Hotel Robbery
POSTED: 6:10 am CDT March 25,2010
UPDATED: 2:54 pm CDT March 25,2010
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BRENTWOOD, Tenn. -- Three suspected robbers were shot by a Metro police officer in Brentwood early Thursday morning. Authorities said the men were conducting their second robbery of the night when they were shot and wounded.
Related: Images | Noon Report | Morning Report
Officials said three men robbed a group of people in the lobby at the Homewood Suites on Church Street in downtown Nashville at about 1:50 a.m. They escaped with two purses and one wallet.
The suspects were identified as Deaunte Carter, 23, Rory Gilmer, 22, and 20-year-old Antonio Leggs.
The thieves then got into a maroon van and drove to the Hyatt Place Hotel on Old Hickory Boulevard in Brentwood, according to police.
Officials said Officer Justin Fox, 35, and an undercover officer from another agency, entered the Brentwood Hyatt lobby at 2:30 a.m. They were working as part of an unrelated, ongoing investigation.
Police said the suspects ordered the officers to the floor at gunpoint, striking and kicking both men while threatening to kill them.
Before Fox went completely to the ground he pulled out his police-issued handgun, and fired on all three suspects in defense of himself and the other officer who did not fire a weapon. The suspects did not return fire. A handgun, dropped by one of the suspects, was recovered from the lobby floor.
According to authorities, the three wounded men then escaped to their van and drove north on Interstate 65. Police caught them and took them into custody near Armory Drive.
Carter and Gilmer are in critical condition at Vanderbilt University Hospital. Leggs is in stable condition. Police said they all face charges.
The two purses and wallet stolen from the victims of the Homewood Suites robbery were recovered from the suspects' getaway vehicle.
Fox, a 12-year police veteran, is on routine administrative assignment pending an investigation into the shootings.
Last edited by tpd223; 04-01-10 at 14:49.
Member
Every police shooter I have read (Jim Cirillo, Massad Ayoob) will tell you that challenging a perp to drop their weapon is a mistake. Most times they will just open fire, probably getting the drop on the challenger.
If someone has a weapon and is threatening with it, you are clear to shoot. Delaying that is asking for trouble.
Senior Staff
...and to clarify, brandishing it is considered a threat. Whether it is at his side, out of holster, or pointed at the ground at low ready, or pointed in your general direction.
Industry Professional
The longer you spend talking the longer it takes for you to start shooting.
Member
That's what happened when the 2 officers challenged Hassan at Ft Hood. They totally had the drop on him because they very wisely flanked him, IIRC his back was facing them. They yelled, "Police, drop your weapon!" Hassan turned and blasted away at them, wounding the female officer immediately, and then the male officer shot that worthless mother****er (can't remember, was he wounded too?).
No need to wait, delay, or give any opportunity to an armed attacker. If you've got positive ID that he's a bad guy and know without a doubt he's about to do you harm, shoot the ****er.
FYI, hindsight's 20/20 and I'm not saying anything negative about the guy in this particular story. I'm extremely thankful he shared his story of mistakes made and lessons learned, as it educates all of us and better prepares us for similar scenarios.
Semper Fi,
-Paul
Member
I am sure it has been stated before but efficient H2H principles should supercede anything a person can put thier hands on to save labor. Sound combatives will give you the time you need to get a force multiplier into the fight if the body is not enough to dispatch the threat.
"Everyone has been given a gift in life. Some people have a gift for science and some have a flair for art. And warriors have been given the gift of aggression. They would no more misuse this gift than a doctor would misuse his healing arts, but they yearn for the opportunity to use their gift to help others. These people, the ones who have been blessed with the gift of aggression and a love for others, are our sheepdogs. These are our warrior"
Banned
I completely agree.
Once deadly force is justified, waiting just invites more trouble.
Senior Member
Man I know a guy who used to carry his 5 shot J-Frame with an cylinder round under the hammer because that is what the freaking manual told him to do. I tried and tried to explain the firing pin block safety on his modern gun made that unnecessary!
It is easy to say what you'd do in a situation but until you are in the situation you will never know. I'm sure a thousand things were going through his mind. He fought well and won!
Last edited by usmcvet; 05-15-10 at 00:03.
"Real men have always needed to know what time it is so they are at the airfield on time, pumping rounds into savages at the right time, etc. Being able to see such in the dark while light weights were comfy in bed without using a light required luminous material." -Originally Posted by ramairthree
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