Congress Proposes Common Ground Combat Uniform

[Amicus]

Originally Posted by dwhitehorne

I would guess that is unit pride to wear the striped shirt. When I was a MSG in Moscow a Naval Infantry unit gave us their striped shirts. It was considered a great honor for them. I think airborne wears the striped shirt too. David

I am sure that I am going to get part of this wrong. but:

I believe the striped sailor shirt was adopted by the new paratroop units in the 1930s to show "solidarity" with their naval counterparts who were the instigators of the people's revolution. Maybe this is due to the mutiny and actions of the crew of the Aurora in 1917 in storming the Winter Palace; maybe this is due to the mutiny on the Potemkin in 1905. I suspect both were in the back of the minds of the new para commanders, with emphasis on the Aurora crew. The para promoters were very anxious that their new units be accepted by Stalin, and they did a fantastic job at developing their new corps' ToO and tactics (probably the best in the world at the time, until the Stalin army purge).

Today, most elite units in the Russian/Soviet army have adopted the "navy" shirt to show their elite status, including Spetznaz, paratroops, and Guards units.

[Amicus]

I'm sure I will catch hell for this, but ...

The US is pathetic when it comes to camo development. With the exception of the first "chocolate chip" pattern, and possibly the improved "six color" desert patterns, the US has done remarkably little. Some of the patterns Germany used in WWII are better than today's systems, and the US still issues equipment using the woodland pattern that is an updated Marine camo from the same war.

Case in point: ever seen photos of the Marine full camo uniforms issued in 1942? Well, they worked fine in the jungle for about 30 days. Then they bleached out due to exposure to sun, moisture, and laundering; bad dye jobs. Now, do you think that walking around the jungle in rotting off-white uniforms provides sufficient concealment? What did the folks at the top do? They abandoned it as a project, and instead used only the famous Marine helmet cover.

Was camo generally issued in Korea, Vietnam?

Let's just decide that "universal" camo is a nonstarter until the world becomes "universal" or monochrome, that the whole idea is a self-contradiction, and adopt Flectarn and give it up.

Want decent camo? Do what the SAS does: roll around in motor oil then roll around in the local dirt.

[wild_wild_wes]

Originally Posted by Amicus

The US is pathetic when it comes to camo development.

Yup.

The "Vietnam era" ERDL camo was actually developed in 1948....but the Army didn't bother issueing until 1967.

Because the next war was going to be a push-button affair you see, and "conventional warfare" was obsolete.

[kodiak22]

Originally Posted by Amicus

I'm sure I will catch hell for this, but ...

The US is pathetic when it comes to camo development. With the exception of the first "chocolate chip" pattern, and possibly the improved "six color" desert patterns, the US has done remarkably little. Some of the patterns Germany used in WWII are better than today's systems, and the US still issues equipment using the woodland pattern that is an updated Marine camo from the same war.

Case in point: ever seen photos of the Marine full camo uniforms issued in 1942? Well, they worked fine in the jungle for about 30 days. Then they bleached out due to exposure to sun, moisture, and laundering; bad dye jobs. Now, do you think that walking around the jungle in rotting off-white uniforms provides sufficient concealment? What did the folks at the top do? They abandoned it as a project, and instead used only the famous Marine helmet cover.

Was camo generally issued in Korea, Vietnam?

Let's just decide that "universal" camo is a nonstarter until the world becomes "universal" or monochrome, that the whole idea is a self-contradiction, and adopt Flectarn and give it up.

Want decent camo? Do what the SAS does: roll around in motor oil then roll around in the local dirt.

Okay im jumping in on this.

yea we do have some S***ty patterns: ACU, ABU, and NWU( which the Navy themselves said wasn't meant to conceal, there for cannot be considered a real camo pattern).

but have you seen any of the other patterns we've developed? Desert, and Woodland Marpat( yes i know its recolored cadpat, but we did have to develope the coloration, and had to test it), Multicam, Woodland, and Desert All Over Brush(Desert more so then Woodland though), how about Bulldog Mirage? Am i missing anything?

Tell me of some country that hasnt been "pathetic" as you said, in camo developement lately? Ie. within lets say the last 15-20 years?

By the way sorry if i sound like i have an attitude right now, just a little offended when you call us pathetic in this situation.


Edit: Forgot about the new A-TACS Camo, ive seen the older versions and it looks cool, but supposedly the newest/productions version is different, and is suppose to be better. So we will see how it is at Shot.

[Amicus]

I do not intend to get into a squabble over this. Over at TOS the mods were once threatening to boot anyone who even mentioned the expression MARPAT, it got so bad.

I did not say we haven’t improved, and I certainly have not made an exhaustive study of the subject, but::

(1) I did mention two desert patterns as being exceptions, meaning that they performed well.

(2) Just because a camo pattern gets developed does not mean it is accepted. Multicam appears to be a very good pattern. Too bad it lost out to ACU, which you admit is not that good. Many of the more effective patterns developed can only be considered “military” because they get used by SOG, or by some other military (e.g., Multicam, Tiger).

(3) By all accounts, Tiger was a fairly effective pattern for SF (and I like it) for the Vietnam days, while the Marines were still using the WWII pattern helmet covers and the Army wasn’t really using anything at all. WWII + 25 years and no progress for a general uniform.

(4) I agree Woodland MARPAT was a vast improvement and the Marines were wise to choose it. I’m glad the Canadians came up with the idea.

(5) As I mentioned, Woodland/ERDL was not exactly innovative (apparently next generation from the WWII Marine pattern) and was limited in application. I assume its development owed much to that anticipated little war in and around the Fulda Gap. It did not get used in combat there, but was used just about everywhere else, and some of the later versions apparently did owe influence to Vietnam.

(6) I am trying to take the long view here. Over a few years during WWII the German Heer came up with a huge variety of effective patterns that were miles ahead of where we were then and competitive with where we are now. The various versions of “oak leaf,” dot, and splinter patterns served them well. The Japanese did not work on uniforms as much as concealment techniques, which were very effective.

I admit you are right when you state that a great many innovative patterns are emerging all the time. The problem I am complaining about is that these patterns are not consistently making their way to the soldiers. The reasons for this appear to be:

-Military conservative attitudes (i.e., tending to fight the last war)

-Military rejection of new ideas and the ideas flowing from them (e.g., SF/SOG would have died on the vine if JFK had not loved them so much). If so, then “Tiger” would only refer to the animal or William Blake drug-induced hallucinations.

-Military tension between the idea of “uniform” and “effective concealment” – whenever anyone does come up with a good idea, someone else has to complain that the idea violates “uniform” standards or that it is a budget or logistic problem.

I don’t have much more to say about this. Perhaps I could have stated my thesis better.

[shep854]

The original concept for digital camo came out of Natick, the Canadians made it work, though.

"The patent for CADPAT lists US Army research[1] done by LTC Timothy R. O’Neill (U.S. Army, Retired) in the 1970s as an early inspiration for their digital pattern. CADPAT went considerably beyond this initial research. CADPAT is a computer generated pattern incorporating sophisticated Near Infrared protection designed to conceal soldiers from image intensification devices (night vision)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadpat

[carolvs]

Originally Posted by Amicus

The US is pathetic when it comes to camo development.

The US is great at camo development: Natick has created great patterns like Deset All Over Brush, and Multicam was developed under contract with Natick as Skorpion.

The problem is with the bureaucracy that stands between our great developments actually getting to the solider. UCP was a political decision that had nothing to do with with the result of all the time and money spent working on the universal camo problem at Natick. Indeed all of that work was just flushed down to toilet when the USMC adopted MARPAT, and someone in Big Army with more stars than sense said, "We need that too," and then implemented it without the work that the USMC did with MARPAT to really test it and make sure it worked.

[shep854]

What's really pathetic is that the Army DID do the work (read links posted previously), yet went with the worst of five competing patterns. That's why I keep wanting to believe that "office cool" was the final determinant.

[Klear Above]

Amen!

[Failure2Stop]

plus

and I can match any environment in the world. I've done it a few times.

Camouflage pattern effectiveness is more a result of the right colors in the right proportion to each other than whether or not they are pixelated, photo derived, or hand stenciled. Take the best camouflage in the world and stick it in the wrong place and you are up the creek sans paddle. Take the worst pattern in the world and apply the right overcoat of paint and you can hide much easier. Even the best current universal patters benefit from environmental tweaks.

We don't need a universal camouflage, we need people at the higher end of the chain of command to come to grips with the concept that we are engaged in warfare and leniency needs to be applied to the uniformity of the individual to permit environmental blending.

Talking about camouflage patterns is about as useful as debating the difference in 1/2" of length on a bayonet.
Of much greater interest is in having a durable uniform with pockets in the right places, away from useless/uncomfortable places, seams out of joints and armor, readily compatible with knee/elbow pads and holsters, and stretch in the right places with the right amount of tightness in others.

[USGILT]

Right on..... cut out the bureaucracy and go with what has been proven to work in the field in addition to good research conducted by the real troops who have to us it if the field!

USGILT

[soldiersystems]

Originally Posted by shep854

What's really pathetic is that the Army DID do the work (read links posted previously), yet went with the worst of five competing patterns. That's why I keep wanting to believe that "office cool" was the final determinant.

Well, the problem with those reports is that they are the equivalent of closing the barn door after the horse is already out. The studies were accomplished AFTER UCP was adopted by the Army.

[shep854]

Originally Posted by soldiersystems

Well, the problem with those reports is that they are the equivalent of closing the barn door after the horse is already out. The studies were accomplished AFTER UCP was adopted by the Army.

Thanks; that's news to me. The impression was given in the accounts I read that the aforementioned tests were prior to selection of the UCP.

[shep854]

From SSD; UCP-D arrives in A'stan.

http://soldiersystems.net/2009/11/12...its-revealed/l

[soldiersystems]

And I'll raise you one..

http://soldiersystems.net/2009/11/13...-study-update/

[kodiak22]

Originally Posted by soldiersystems

And I'll raise you one..

http://soldiersystems.net/2009/11/13...-study-update/

That's awesome, love D-AOB. so I'm guessing that was just a commemorative thing?

[soldiersystems]

No, like it says in the article, "Desert All Over Brush was one of the patterns used in the data collection effort and will be evaluated as part of this project."

[kodiak22]

Originally Posted by soldiersystems

No, like it says in the article, "Desert All Over Brush was one of the patterns used in the data collection effort and will be evaluated as part of this project."

Oh damn. How did i miss that.

[wild_wild_wes]

Originally Posted by shep854

From SSD; UCP-D arrives in A'stan.

http://soldiersystems.net/2009/11/12...its-revealed/l

linky no workey!

[chadbag]

Originally Posted by wild_wild_wes

linky no workey!

take the stray l or whatever it is off the end after the final /