2012 National Zumba Endurance Champion
الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب
So you were trained to base your marksmanship around the marksmanship of someone you're shooting as opposed to what makes you most efficient?
This type of thinking ranks up there with dudes who transition to their support shoulder inside of a house for "cover" when they're shooting behind drywall. Guys focusing their doctrine on the structural integrity of contractor grade drywall as opposed to clearing their primary+secondary sectors of fire, moving to their points of domination, and taming savages.
Because the last time I checked, and please correct me if I'm wrong...but nobody has ever won a gunfight by scaring someone to death. You absolutely will win with well placed shots delivered as many times as needed.
Whatever technique allows you to accomplish this efficiently is the answer.
Last edited by GTF425; 10-23-17 at 21:24.
Thanks guys. I see this is a controversial subject. I do not use the full frontal, armored up, stance. I have a 16 inch barrel with the standard gas block/F front sight post so I am not reaching for my life way out there. My elbow is bent because it has to be bent. Turning the elbow out and down is not going to be an option for this rifle unless I extend the stock out a mile. Right now it is at the first click. I am 5'9". I have a front post directly under the front sight post so what I am experimenting with now is choking up on the post toward the barrel, with two or three fingers on the post, and wrapping my over the top of the quad rail or hooking my thumb over the left side rail near the top and holding it down.
In complaining about my recoil management, I mean the second shot of a quick double tap. I want it on target quicker.
Holding the rifle up under the standard hand protectors which came with the rifle seemed the least effective. The front post was better, and just all around better for handling and moving from target to target. But those tier one operators on the internet certainly make an impressive argument for the C grip. I ordered an ERGO hand break today to compare it and that style with the front post shooting I have been doing.
Last edited by Dr. Bullseye; 10-23-17 at 22:51.
Vertical foregrip (VFG) is better term than front post, it took me a minute to figure out what you were talking about. Recoil control is just as much about your entire body's stance as it is grip on the gun. I like a short VFG with a hybrid grip as you've described, where my thumb is over the top, index and middle are on the rail, and ring and pinky are on the grip. You don't necessarily have to shrug your shoulder up high, but it helps a lot to push it forward towards your target. Having the stock extended as far as reasonably comfortable will likely give you better leverage on the gun and you want to really press your cheek into the stock, don't just set it on top. Finally, I'm all about that power iso stance that some awesome LEOs have taught me out here. I think Jon Chapman mentions the same technique in one of his Panteao videos but your firing side foot is dropped back a bit behind your support foot, and the knee is locked out. Load your support knee by leaning into it a bit. It's pretty damn solid.
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Sic semper tyrannis.
Correct. In getting your frame upunna a gun it makes supporting the weapon easier, ie. less muscle use/more scaffolding. It also allows for NPOA. Absolutely. At no point was I implying that a skeleton without muscles or ligaments on the ground was the ideal shooting technique.
You're not going to mitigate follow up shots walking/rotational torque using a bladed-off stance.
Leave the Camp Perry shit at home.
The shooter below has maximum meat behind the gun.
If you're:
Shooting someone in the face
Punching someone in the face
Stabbing someone in the face
The body mechanics are the same. The end.
My comment was tongue in cheek/joking
I don't think there's any 'natural point of aim' shooting offhand (unsupported position) like there is when kneeling, sitting, or prone (supported positions). But I do think that there will be an optimal body position/stance and grip on the weapon that helps get you on target and stay there with follow up shots.
In the context of this discussion, we're not including the competition shooting technique (the Camp Perry reference that outlander systems mentioned above) where your support arms is tucked into your torso and elbow above the hip bone. When kneeling, sitting or prone, you can find a natural point of aim because your arms (or elbows) will be supported by contact with the knees or ground, so you adjust the position of your skeleton to put you on target. When shooting a carbine offhand in this context, you're relying fully on muscles to support the weight of the weapon and hold it on target. That's why you start to get tired after 30 seconds of holding the rifle on target while standing whereas you can maintain a properly supported position for hours (or until you start cramping up).
I'm a little guy (5' 7", 150 lbs) and what I've learned that has helped me with recoil management (after listening to many different instructors over the past few years) is basically getting a good grip on the weapon, stable stance and body tension. The same applies whether I'm shooting a handgun or carbine. When you look at very new shooters, they're basically just holding the gun out there. Just 'supporting' the weight of the weapon. Sometimes you'll see rifle shooters keep their support hand open, with the handguard just resting in their open palm. That's fine if you're taking one shot at a time, slow fire. Recoil is irrelevant in that situation. Back to the new pistol shooters - you'll often see them take the shot, the pistol jumps in their hands, and their whole body moves. Everything is loosey goosey and wobbly (unless they're instructed properly from the beginning). Same thing with a lot of carbine shooters that are just (supporting) holding their rifles up vs. pulling the rifles into their shoulders and ensuring they have a stable 'base' etc.
One of the examples I was given that made sense to me was of a boxer or martial artist in a relaxed, but ready fighting stance. Body is relaxed, hands are up and ready to move. But once the boxer punches or defends against an incoming punch, all the muscles tense up; all the way from the fists through the arms, shoulders, core and legs. Imagine taking a punch or throwing one with relaxed wrists and body. I was told to manage recoil in a similar manner (keep the grip, core etc tight when you're on target and taking those quick multiple shots) and it made a difference (for me). I look at some older videos of me shooting and I was wiggling all over the place when shooting a .308. A little less so now that I'm a bit more aware.
YMMV of course. Just try varying one thing at a time to see how it affects your follow up shots. Try double tapping at close range with your gut/abs relaxed. Then tense your abs and try it again. Just like you would at the moment you're throwing a punch.
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