FULL- 2008 Vickers Tactical Hackathorn/Vickers Low Light Level II Pistol/Carbine

[Heavy Metal]

For those who missed it -- beg, borrow, or steal, to convince them to run another...

Oh, we will, trust me, we are gonna make him crack! I might rob a 7/11 (Gay Porn? No! Unless a threefer with two hot lesbians count. Otherwise, that's as wrong as two boys fucking.) to get bribe money.

I truly regret I missed LL1. If I had know this was the end of the line, I would have taken it. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.............

[NCPatrolAR]

Great class. Enjoyed being able to train with Larry and Ken again while being able to shoot with the gang of the usual suspects.


Anyone notice how Kevin seems to becoming more and more domesticated with each of these classes? ;-)

[stony275]

As per SOP, Ken and Larry did their usual outstanding job.

It was great to finally meet folks that heretofore I had only known or known of via the Internet.

I look forward to JohnWayne777's (aka TIP) AAR.

[John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted by stony275

I look forward to JohnWayne777's (aka TIP) AAR.

Et tu, Stony?

[cfrazier]

Great class and group of guys. Only thing I didn't like was that damn computer and I took care of that.

[Eric Rice]

I've just now RTB. It was a real pleasure to shoot with all involved with this class. Truly, some of the finest people I've ever had the blessing to be around - consummate professionals all.

My most sincere and heartfelt thanks go to Paul, Rodney, Joe, Sam, Tom, Lynn, Mr. Tailor and of course Ken and LAV. If I've left anyone out, I apologize.

It was nice to see many of you again, and very nice to meet the rest. Thanks for the groceries to all that pitched in, especially Megan & Kevin.

Congrats to the winner of the Omega Rail, and the other top shooters. Thanks to all those flying the DD colors as well. Please let me know if I can do anything for you.

Stony, great to team up with you again, Brother. You were sorely missed on day 3, but Joe stepped up and would have made you proud. My new call sign is hostage slayer. "What, that little guy? I wouldn't worry about that little guy."

[Jay_Cunningham]

Outstanding class in every respect - thank you Ken and LAV and all the AI's for all the instruction.

Nice to see the old faces and meet some new ones. Brian certainly has the coolest ride in North America, and Ben was a great sport despite the accusations of espionage. JW_777 (a.k.a. TIP) put up with my snoring and for that he deserves a prize.

BBQ dinner TD2 and TD3 was worth the price of admission. Thanks also to C4IGrant who paid for several meals and also was the namesake of my two man team: Team GrantHawk.

Missed Dinger and FJB.

I learned that while an amazingly versatile optic, the S&B Short Dot would not be my first choice for low light CQB. It can get the job done, however, if need be. I also decided to go back to a DG switch on my Glock to activate my X200B. A laser on a J-frame is a no-brainer, but I am beginning to wonder if I really want one on my Glock. First time I ran with a war belt and I was overall quite pleased. Lots of other lessons learned.

Kevin, your wife is a good catch!

Thanks to all involved in making this class happen for the opportunity.

[Larry Vickers]

Overall one of the best group of guys ever for a class - other than a little rain at the end of day 2 I honestly think It could not have went smoother

Looking back on the low light classes Ken and I both agree that anyone who participated witnessed history as classes such as these have never been done before - truly unique in every respect

Be safe and I will see many of you relatively soon

LAV

[ErikL]

This was a great class. my hats off to to Ken, Larry and all the AI's that made this possible. It was also a pleasure to get to train with a great group of guys, who also made this class possible. While I'm not going to give a traditional AAR of what was covered. I will give some of my observations.

-Physical fitness along with the proper state of mind are key, while we didn't do anything overly physical I can tell my diminished physical condition prevented me from performing at a level I expect of myself. Its not the gear its the guy using it after all.

-Similarly If you can't find the time to get to the range, at least get some dry firing in. I developed a case of El Snacho's and and a few other things I need to work on.

-If it can break, it will do it at the worse time. My pistol light went down in the last scenario, have a back up if you can.

-Accuracy, and shot placement are key.

-There is a limitless amount of ways you can set up your carbine regarding lights and the means in which you turn them on. Just because it works for someone else doesn't mean it will work for you.

-Larry and Templar are walking encyclopedias of firearms knowledge.

-LED lights have come along way.


Overall I took a ton away from this class, I'm fortunate to be able to attend.

Cheers.

[C4IGrant]

Great class (maybe the best ever) with an excellent group of shooters. There was no "I need to zero my gun" or "Why don't I just turn my flashlight on and leave it on" types of questions.

My partner (Jay) was very good, but felt sorry for him as the entire class he was referred to as "Team GrantHawk." I guess that is better than being called "Team Single Point" or "Team Hoser."

There were many funny moments/comments from the class. Some of my favorites:

"You know he's Asian right?" EricL

"Ahh I take NV and PEQ-2 back to my great leader Kim Jong-il." Ben Wa

"Tactical Internet Personality (TIP) that's you!" LAV

"Hey D*CKHEAD, put your thumb up!" LAV

"WHITE POWER!" Lance/GrantHawk/McLovin


C4

[30 cal slut]

RMAO.

Gonna be tough to top this training experience, short of enristing. And I rearry mean that.

[Templar]

Does Dinger's warbelt make me look fat?







Oh, never mind, that's my fat ass......




I will reinforce the excellent points already made, especially by Erik. Mental and physical conditioning are extrememly important in an advanced class like this.

It took me a full day and a half to unfuck myself to the point that I wasn't completely flailing. I borrowed VA_Dinger's warbelt, and was finally able to configure it to where I needed it, with Grant's advice, the morning of TD3.

The first time and the last time I'd been able to perform any of these drills was last year, and it definitely showed. "Team Templar" was re-christened "Team Shortbus" on TD1.

Hopefully, by TD3, we shed most of the bussing.

30 cal slut took a bunch of crap from people and continued motoring on. JW777 also put up with a bunch of crap, and was a good sport about it.

This was by far the best class I've attended, and though I know what the answer is going to be, if it were ever held again, I'd be first on the sign up chart if they'd have me again.

Watching people who really knew what they were doing perform these drills, and comparing them to myself, I know I have a long, long, long way to go to get proficient and stay that way.

I'm fairly happy with the way my 6920 is set up, even with the 6P set up at 4 o'clock, I could easily activate from either shoulder, and learned how to minimize backsplash. The Kahles CSX 1.1-4x worked great, although there were instances where a non magnified red dot (Aimpoint) would have been superior, I'm happy enough with the scope that I'm not going to change it.

If I wasn't a believer in CT grips before this class, I am now. I shot my SIG P226 Tactical with CT grips and I was very impressed with them. On the SIG, they're a little bulky for CCW, but for a bump in the night gun, they're great.

A huge thanks goes to Ken and Larry, and the AI's for putting up with us and trying to hammer some knowledge into our skulls.

I took vacation time to be at the class, but it wasn't a vacation for me. Where else could I have gotten this training as a civvie? And, from the level of instructors? No where that I'm aware of.

It was good seeing the usual suspects and to catch up with friends, and meet new faces and count them as friends as well.

Kevin, you're a lucky man, she's definitely a keeper if she put up with all of us.

And Ben, thanks for not shooting me, I appreciate it.....


Usual suspects......

[30 cal slut]

Originally Posted by Templar

And Ben, thanks for not shooting me, I appreciate it.....

Weren't you a nervous nelly.

[John_Wayne777]

Well, I suppose I should post something....

I'm not going to do a detailed AAR on this one because there was a lot of reenforcement of the fundamentals of low light learned in the level I courses, and personally I found that to be extremely useful. Any time spent working in low light helps to make you more comfortable with the environment and what you need to do in it.

For instance: The first drill we went through on TD1 was an accuracy competition. We shot several strings of rifle and pistol fire with the carbine and handgun during the afternoon, and then the exact same string at night. I shot the carbine sections clean in both environments (thank you, Aimpoint) and I managed come in 2nd on the drill, losing out to Eric by 2 points and beating the dude in 3rd place by a BIG margin.

(Huge. Massive. All the gucci gear and a suppressor couldn't help him enough to beat my sorry ass with a Bushmaster. That has to be REALLY embarrassing.)

Anyhoo, while shooting these drills the emphasis was on accuracy....so most guys gamed it and kept their light on the entire run of the drill. While shooting the drill, however, I was battling an intense desire to turn the light off. The previous low lights had such a powerful impact on my thinking that now my brain was screaming at me (in a voice that sounded an awful lot like Ken's voice) that I needed to turn that light off.

[Hannibal Lecter] I do believe we're beginning to make progress! [/Hannibal Lecter]

I was also moving a lot more after shots and after light uses than in the level 1 classes. Amazing what practice will do for you.

My favorite part of TD1 was running the barrel house with the carbines both in the day and at night. When attempting to do a 1 man clear of that structure with a long gun you suddenly realize why Mr. Vickers came up with his sling. It's crucial to be able to switch shoulders to get the best possible angles on the rooms. I was also impressed with how easy it was to get hits with the RDS equipped carbine. I was making head shots with little to no effort. It felt like cheating.

The only downside to using the carbine was a couple of tight spaces wouldn't allow for a traditional shoulder mounted position with the rifle, especially if you're using an A2 stock like I was. No worries, however, as I simply put the stock of the rifle on the top of my shoulder and tilted the rifle allowing me to use the Aimpoint, which I used to continue with the head shot theme.

God bless the Aimpoint.

On some other sites I often hear people ask why anyone would pick an AR carbine to use as a home defense weapon over a pistol. One trip through that barrel house with an Aimpoint equipped carbine would clear that up pretty damned quick.

TD2 saw us at the shoothouse in Clarington going over the CQB stuff again. NCPatrolAR called me as his partner early on TD1 and so we stayed partnered up for the rest of the class. We did the 2 man stuff quite well. The only real downside was that I discovered that when armed with a Colt SMG I apparently have a proclivity to shoot hostages. Apparently even though I wasn't using the happy switch merely having it on the weapon was turning me into a slaughterer of the innocent. This re-enforced my belief that full auto should only be used by the military and the police.

On one of the runs through the house I decided that I was going to see how many hits I could get on the pepper poppers before they fell. The best I could manage was 6 hits on it before it dropped. Mr. Vickers said, and I quote "Slow the ^&@!% down, hoser!" I had some awesome split times.

In general everybody did the team stuff a lot more smoothly this time around.

TD3 brought out the NV and the IR lasers. The instructors explained the strengths and weaknesses of NV equipment and when the tools were most useful. We did some basic fam fire with the equipment using weapons equipped with IR lasers. Then we hit the shoothouse.

According to the instructors as a group we actually did better at the team based stuff with the NV equipment because it forced us to move slower and more deliberately. Accuracy was also improved as people slowed down and made quality hits.

I was using the Colt SMG and NCPatrolAR was using the 1911 equipped with an IR unit from Crimson Trace. A guy with an SMG and a guy with a 1911 make for a pretty interesting match. I got lots of experience yelling "Covering!" in response to my partner yelling "Loading!".

Using the NV was a pain in the neck. The helmet wasn't adjusted well because we just didn't have the time, so I ended up going through the house as the NV slowly sank down my face. By the last couple of rooms I was moving with my head pointed up like a rat sniffing for some cheese. Depth perception with those 7B's was a pain in the neck, but overall I preferred using them to the PVS-14 monocle setup. Accuracy with the IR lasers was pretty easy. I tried for headshots again and misjudged the offset of the laser, but my hits were still very good. The desire to snatch the unholy bejeezus out of the trigger when you are tucking a rifle under your arm instead of mounting it to the shoulder as normal is intense.

The final drill on TD3 was a home invasion scenario. We had to start in the back room of the house with our weapon laying on a "table". The command "up" was supposed to be replicating the sound of somebody smashing into our house. We then had to do a one man clear of the house to go find the intruder and take care of it. Once again I had some awesome split times on the intruder.

Immediately after putting him down we then heard a "scream" from our "child's" room. You would think that after having been in that shoothouse for a number of days I'd know where they could hide everything, but not so. After verbally expressing my displeasure at having damn near missed the bad guy, I managed to pop him 3 times before he hit the ground.

The goal of the drill was to force everybody to do another 1 man clear and to expose the balance you have to strike between speed and security. One of the good things about the instruction you receive from Vickers and Hackathorn is the sense of balance that they teach.

There's a time to deliberately clear a structure...there's also a time to run to the sound of the problem and start shooting. There's a time for the low-ready, and a time for the high-ready. There's a time for point shooting, and there's a time for a hard front sight focus....a time to every purpose, under heaven...You don't get that approach from just any instructors. A number of them take something that makes sense in a particular circumstance and stretch it to unnatural extremes to try and cover all circumstances.

After the conclusion of TD3 Mr. Hackathorn and Mr. Vickers stopped by the Holiday Inn for some pizza and told some stories, keeping us entertained until after 2 am.

Overall, it was a great class. I learned quite a bit and had a good time learning it. The lessons taught were valuable and watching guys stack up on the pineapple upside down cake was entertaining. We didn't have too many shenanigans this time around because apparently the people who ran the motel remembered some of us from last time and made sure to close the bar every time they saw us coming. I also learned that I had offended some delicate sensibilities on another site (which, from what I understand, isn't hard to do) and that they actually want to turn me into a moderator here.

It was good to hang out with some of the M4C regulars, although a few moments made me question the wisdom of hanging out with some of these guys. I was forced to come up with a scale of ick.

On the plus side, in a roundabout way it helped me come up with what may become my new sig-line:

"Shooting steel is like dating a midget."

EDIT -- Oh, and the 20 count boxes of beer can really only hold 20 bottles no matter how you try to put them in there.

[John_Wayne777]

Something else....has anyone heard from the Raven Concealment guys yet? I owe them some money for the stuff they made me.

[30 cal slut]

Originally Posted by John_Wayne777

After the conclusion of TD3 Mr. Hackathorn and Mr. Vickers stopped by the Holiday Inn for some pizza and told some stories, keeping us entertained until after 2 am.

After swerving all over the Ohio valley, I miraculously made it in to the post-training festivities ... and upon reaching the room immediately spotted my #1 man Templar practicing a pie-cut and corner clear prior to entering the room. Just like the shoothouse. I was met with a sheepish grin. (That's okay, I do the same thing at work now). Thanks to KevinB and the missus for the pizza - that really hit the spot!


p.s.

If I show up at Larry's next AK class decked out in black PJ's, please don't shoot me.

[stony275]

Originally Posted by John_Wayne777

Something else....has anyone heard from the Raven Concealment guys yet? I owe them some money for the stuff they made me.

I know Michael has been working his way through the list and calling guys.

[John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted by stony275

I know Michael has been working his way through the list and calling guys.

Cool. I just want to make sure that I pay them for their hard work. They busted their hump for us and made something for almost everyone in the class if I remember correctly.

[KevinB]

Not sure they have anything but email for me.
they did an awesome job on the belt adaptor for me - and the other items I got from them too - and I want to make sure the get their due.

[Heavy Metal]

Isn't this the scene where they freeze frame and roll credits?