My take on Glock's

[Federale]

What charts?

The charts on Winchester's website.

And repeating my previous question, any chance you could chrono some of your existing load? This is a purely a curiosity question, but this ought to be easy enough to figure out.

No. There is no chance. Sorry. I've provided the item number, you'll have to take it from there.

[JLM]

No. There is no chance. Sorry. I've provided the item number, you'll have to take it from there.

Unfortunately, its pretty much unobatanium, there's the rub. Its my 'understanding' that the load was developed specifically to make the guns function properly. I believe the source of that info was Dean Spier, but my memory is somewhat fuzzy in my middle age.

I noted the move to the faster 180 with interest. Like Todd said, we'll just have to see what happens

Hopefully Glock won't blame the shooters or the ammo, SHOULD issues arise

[Federale]

Unfortunately, its pretty much unobatanium, there's the rub. Its my 'understanding' that the load was developed specifically to make the guns function properly. I believe the source of that info was Dean Spier, but my memory is somewhat fuzzy in my middle age.

Wait a minute, you mean that nobody actually has the ballistic information on the FBI's 165gr. Gold Dot load?

Dean Speir, of "all Glocks go kaboom" fame?

As I suggested a few posts back, I haven't seen anyone actually point to real facts about what the FBI 165gr load actually is and does. As you said, this round is pretty much unobtainable outside of the FBI. Lots of people have "heard" or have the "understanding" of what the FBI load is, but without the information or having actual data, isn't all of this just rumor? Sure, this load might be a reduced velocity. That certainly is the rumor that's been floated and perpetuated. But maybe it IS actually just rumor and a excuse as to why the FBI Glocks work.

[JLM]

I said I 'believe' it was Dean, yes, but I'm not certain. It might very well have been from 10-8.

What I find interesting in this is that there is a 'special' load out there developed by Speer, which is only available to you guys (and those attached to the contract). Is it because its massively ballistically superior? I doubt that. So, that being said, it was obviously developed to meet some specific requirement.

I will try to nail down the source, assuming anyone is interested.

[Federale]

I said I 'believe' it was Dean, yes, but I'm not certain. It might very well have been from 10-8.

What I find interesting in this is that there is a 'special' load out there developed by Speer, which is only available to you guys (and those attached to the contract). Is it because its massively ballistically superior? I doubt that. So, that being said, it was obviously developed to meet some specific requirement.

I will try to nail down the source, assuming anyone is interested.

There are people on 10-8 who would be in a position to know, however I haven't seen those people comment on the load. I've seen people say "I've heard" and comment though.

How do you not know that the only difference between the standard 165 gr. Gold Dot load and the FBI 165 gr. load is the item number. We've established earlier in this thread that manufacturers may identify a variety of different items for specific contracts, who is to say that the only difference is the item number stamped on the box?

What I'm saying is that until someone takes a box of the FBI load and tests it, then what have we got? Rumors and speculation. And I haven't found a reliable source who has reported doing just that.

I'm simply not in a position to provide more information than the item number.

[DocGKR]

Folks, there is plenty of information available to LE agencies on the FBI .40 loads. The FBI BRF puts out a comprehensive CD of all their testing data to any agency that asks. This is not some state secret.

In addition, as Federale has accurately stated, the FBI does and has issued a LOT of 9 mm ammo.

The key thing is that NOBODY seriously involved in wound ballistic testing and evaluation cares about handgun bullet weight or velocity--the only question is whether the loads meet the required terminal performance and reliability criteria. If you look at the loads we have tested and recommended (http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bi...;f=78;t=000964) it is obvious that there are multiple bullet weights that all work adequately--it is all about what the projectiles do on target...

[Matt Edwards]

Can I get an AMEN!

[Federale]

Folks, there is plenty of information available to LE agencies on the FBI .40 loads. The FBI BRF puts out a comprehensive CD of all their testing data to any agency that asks. This is not some state secret.

In addition, as Federale has accurately stated, the FBI does and has issued a LOT of 9 mm ammo.

The key thing is that NOBODY seriously involved in wound ballistic testing and evaluation cares about handgun bullet weight or velocity--the only question is whether the loads meet the required terminal performance and reliability criteria. If you look at the loads we have tested and recommended (http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bi...;f=78;t=000964) it is obvious that there are multiple bullet weights that all work adequately--it is all about what the projectiles do on target...

Thanks for clarifying that there is a little more to it than how heavy and how fast the bullet goes. The FBI sets out a widely accepted list of protocols. The FBI bullets meet them. So do a lot of other bullets. And as you correctly stated, its about what happens at the target, not about what happens at the muzzle.

[ToddG]

The key thing is that NOBODY seriously involved in wound ballistic testing and evaluation cares about handgun bullet weight or velocity--the only question is whether the loads meet the required terminal performance and reliability criteria.

The issue raised here isn't whether the FBI's old 165gr Gold Dot was adequate from a wounding standpoint. It specifically dealt with your last phrase, "reliability criteria," and whether it was specifically reduced in velocity to make .40-cal Glocks run more reliably.

It was not an FBI-only load, or at least there was another reduced velocity 165gr Gold Dot available for some time from ATK. I want to say it was loaded very close to the 165gr Hydra-Shok (980fps) but I don't recall exactly.

[Lagadelphia]

Gents

I see the old sand test I was part of years ago has stirred up a hornet's nest over on another forum - I tried to post this thread there but found out I was banned - not sure why that would be so I decided to post this here - in addition it answers several questions I get in nearly every class about Glocks- here goes;

1) IMO the Glock 19 and 17 are the best Glock's made - both are excellent pistols - I own, use, and recommend both

2) I do not recommend the G22, G23, or G21 - based on my experience these pistols have problems (breakage, won't function with rail mounted lights, etc.) and I feel there are better choices in 40 and 45

3) Glocks as a rule are not as accurate as many other service pistols - partly due to the enlarged chamber - this can be fixed with aftermarket barrels

4) I recommend 3 things for a Glock 19 or 17; good sights (Heinie, Novak, 10-8and Warren are my current favorites) , a buttplug to keep debris out of the trigger mech (cheap insurance), and my mag catch made by Tangodown. Optional but highly recommended is frame texturing by Dave Bowie (I like the finger grooves removed also)

5) They are incredibly forgiving in maintenance and lubrication - amazing

6) Incredibly simple to operate - 2 levers/buttons and 1 is optional

7) Always remember the golden rule with a Glock; keep your finger OFF the trigger until you are ready to shoot - if you don't adhere to this expect a loud noise at some point

Bottom line Glocks in 9mm are excellent pistols - they are not my first choice in other calibers however - the S&W M&P has been called a product improved Glock ; this may be true but the verdict is still out as the M&P is a relatively new handgun vs millions of Glock's in service (mostly in 9mm I might add) and S&W has a spotty record in terms of autoloading pistols - time will tell

hope this helps

Larry Vickers

www.vickerstactical.com

Another important aspect about Glocks: The simplicity of the design is such that the average Joe can repair/replace any part in a manner of minutes with no other tools than a punch.