Paterno and Penn State

[Sensei]

There is a 1 fact that is not in dispute - the police were not immediately notified by either Paterno or McQueary after the alleged rape of Victim #2. The presentment specifically states on page 11 that police records were subpoenaed by the grand jury and no report was ever filed.

The grand jury presentment gives enough factual detail to know that McQueary believes that he witnessed a rape of a young boy. He may or may not have intervened on some level to stop the assault based on recent media statements. However, only a moron would not immediately call 911 to insure the future safety of the child. This level of inaction is more than enough cause for termination under most instances, and his continued employment at PSU is a function of the special circumstances of this case that we've previously discussed.

As for Paterno, he admits in the presentment that he knew of Sandusky "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy." While most of us feel that he knew more (or should have known more), this level of detail is established and not contested by Paterno. Knowledge of fondling is also more than enough for any rational person to immediately call 911, and not doing so immediately is a violation of common sense. What is worse, he admits to having no contact with the police until the recent investigation which should have been a clear indication that his report to university officials about the Victim #2 incident was not being investigated.

It is also common knowledge that he continued to associate in a professional manner with Sandusky for another 8 years after being aware that he was accused of serious misdeeds with at least 1 minor. This alone gets you fired in my industry.

[Todd.K]

I will acknowledge that based on very little factual knowledge and mostly speculation it may appear Paterno and McQueary covered this up?

It is 2011, the incident happened in 2002. I think it should be easy to understand why people believe there was a cover up.

The FACT that nobody who knew about it thought immediately calling the cops was the right thing to do is pretty damning.

I would need more details to convict anyone of a crime, but I know enough for me to opine they both lack moral courage, and probably chose to protect their careers and or the school/football program over a child.

[OldState]

I got this as a PM and got permission to post it. He make my point better than I can.


"Since I cannot yet post in the GD forum because my post count is below 200, I wanted to send you a PM on the Penn State Scandal thread that is currently raging.

M4Carbine.net prides itself on finding out actual information before passing judgement on which firearm, part, optic, technique, trainer or etc is better than another. Knowing and understanding information, then making decisions based off of that information is what sets M4C aside and it's why I read/post here. This should be no different.

In regard to the PSU scandal, there are many who are jumping to conclusions based on a very little bit of information. They're looking at the situation and saying well it looks like a rape & coverup on the surface so that's what it must be. Well, a DPMS looks like a Colt on the surface but we know they aren't the same.

Before anyone can pass a final judgement, the facts need to be brought out in full, with names, places and a timeline. A couple indictments have already been issued but that doesn't mean that more won't be. Just because Paterno hasn't been charged doesn't mean he won't be.

Yes, it's a tragedy that kids were taken advantage of and raped. Yes it seems based on what we've got so far that there may have been some additional wrongdoing at Penn State, but I think you're taking alot of unwarranted flak just because you're trying to stop people from jumping to conclusions.

Facts first, then decide. Right now it's a media swirl with everyone and their brother trying to say something or report something about it. I'll wait to see what happens in court.

Just like to add that if this was at some no name university, I think it's likely that nobody would give a shit beyond seeing the report on the news and saying aww that's sad. The only reason this is such a big deal is because of the big name and monetary value associated with the PSU football program.

-Moltke"

[SteyrAUG]

Yes, it's a tragedy that kids were taken advantage of and raped. Yes it seems based on what we've got so far that there may have been some additional wrongdoing at Penn State, but I think you're taking alot of unwarranted flak just because you're trying to stop people from jumping to conclusions.

Facts first, then decide.

Works both ways. Some people are trying to declare him innocent when those facts aren't exactly there either. I don't think anyone is jumping to conclusions.

As noted by the guy who sent the PM, kids got raped. And it "seems based on what we've got so far that there may have been some additional wrongdoing at Penn State" and that is more than enough for a guy in a position of responsibility to LOSE HIS JOB.

Should it be determined that he knew about it and did NOTHING which resulted in ongoing and continuous crimes of the same nature, I think he would be criminally negligent and should be convicted.

But that remains to be seen. That anyone would defend these people given what we know so far is incomprehensible to me and a lot of other people. Course I'm not a football fan but even if it were I'd hope I could prioritize accordingly.

[OldState]

Works both ways. Some people are trying to declare him innocent when those facts aren't exactly there either. I don't think anyone is jumping to conclusions.

As noted by the guy who sent the PM, kids got raped. And it "seems based on what we've got so far that there may have been some additional wrongdoing at Penn State" and that is more than enough for a guy in a position of responsibility to LOSE HIS JOB.

Should it be determined that he knew about it and did NOTHING which resulted in ongoing and continuous crimes of the same nature, I think he would be criminally negligent and should be convicted.

But that remains to be seen. That anyone would defend these people given what we know so far is incomprehensible to me and a lot of other people. Course I'm not a football fan but even if it were I'd hope I could prioritize accordingly.

No one is saying he is innocent and the testimony that we do have says that his did something. Exactly what has yet to be determined but that hasn't stopped people from speculating and assuming the worst.

[SteyrAUG]

No one is saying he is innocent and the testimony that we do have says that his did something. Exactly what has yet to be determined but that hasn't stopped people from speculating and assuming the worst.

And I doubt that speculation will be far off base, OJ was found innocent but most of us can "speculate" the truth of the matter. And I think most of our worst assumptions will likely be accurate.

But should it turn out to be that the worst thing that occurred is what we already know, well that is still pretty bad.

[variablebinary]

I also suspect if it was your kid, you'd feel a little differently about the whole thing.

Hair splitting is always easier when you have no skin in the game.

Bet you everything if anyone on this forum had a kid that was molested while Paterno was the honcho, and he knew the deal on any level, he'd be in the crosshairs as much as the actual molester...literally.

Paterno is about as innocent as Eric Holder in F&F...

That whole "I sorta knew a little about something" just doesn't wash with me. These kids were anal raped. Consider that for a moment. If anyone anywhere is in a position to stop children from being anal raped, and they don't, they are far from innocent, and may they burn in hell.

[Sensei]

I've not seen anyone on this thread assume or state the worst case scenario. Google "Mark Madden" and "The Dennis and Callahan Show" if you want to see what the worse case scenario looks like (FWIW, I think this is horrible speculation and journalism). I'd say that our comments in this thread have been measured and fair. At this point, most of us simply think that Paterno deserved to loose his job while additional investigations will determine his civil and criminal liability.

[OldState]

And I doubt that speculation will be far off base, OJ was found innocent but most of us can "speculate" the truth of the matter. And I think most of our worst assumptions will likely be accurate.

But should it turn out to be that the worst thing that occurred is what we already know, well that is still pretty bad.

The public got to see the entire OJ trial, see all the evidence, and hear all the arguments.

Also remember, there is no defense present when a Grand Jury is convened and their presentments are structured to favor the prosecution. In this case the prosecution is trying to paint a picture of total institutional neglect since they are indicting two administrators. It is foolish to to make assumptions based on Grand Jury Presentments in any case, not just this one. Your only hearing one side.

The above is about as objective of a statement that can be made. There is not presumption of guilt or innocence.

[OldState]

Bet you everything if anyone on this forum had a kid that was molested while Paterno was the honcho, and he knew the deal on any level, he'd be in the crosshairs as much as the actual molester...literally.

This comment illustrates exactly why every effort is made to select juries that have "no skin in the game". No one would ever get a fair trial.