Stuck on a couple of choices, Spikes or DS Arms

[underachiever]

Well if the us milliatary used the glockwe would have a milspec glock.
And we sure know dsarms cant even make a weapon holding to the specs.
And considering the millitary has used the AR i would think they along with colt know how and what to use to build a lasting weapon. And with spikes you have to step up to there law enforcment carbine just to get it. Milspec sure isnt end all but yes it's the very least someone should expect.

[MistWolf]

Mil Spec schmilspec....

Let me explain- no, that will take to long. Let me sum up- I don't think that word means what you think it means

Mil Spec is not the end all be all definitive standard of firearms quality! Mil spec is by definition the MINIMUM specifications that the government will accept, and from the lowest bidder at that in most cases!

When I design and install a skin repair on a 737, it meets the minimum specification set by Boeing in accordance with regulations set by the FAA. It means I use the correct materials specified by the repair manual. Not worse than. Not better than because "better" than is actually "worse than" because it can cause safety of flight issues. There is a failsafe row of rivets that is at the very edge of the repair doubler that calls for AD rivets, a softer less durable alloy than what is used with the normal E rivet. If I used the "better" E rivet instead, it will cause early failure of the repair. Not only is it the minimum specification, it's the only specification allowed because it's the only specification that ensures safety of flight.

My company provides service to an airline because it's the lowest bidder. But if we did not deliver as contracted, that airline would pull out and take their planes elsewhere.

I have also worked as an aviation contractor on military projects. We were the lowest bidder. Again, of we did not deliver, the contract was yanked. Why do companies spend so much effort to provide the best customer service possible? Because the contracts are lucrative.

Take the material specified for the barrels. It must meet a certain standard as set forth by the military. You can look up the spec sheet for yourself. The material Colt uses to meet that spec is 4150 CMV. It's more expensive than 4140 CM, the standard barrel steel used in most commercial rifles. 4150 CMV is also more durable than 4140. Some commercial AR manufacturers cut their receivers from a billet of 6061. These receivers are heavier and more expensive and pound for pound, less stiff than receivers cut from a 7075 forging as specified by milspec.

Yes, the milspec is the minimum standard and the contracts are given to the lowest bidder. But it's not only a good standard, it's a high standard and the suppliers work hard to meet them and spend a good amount of money to make sure they are maintained.

The only forums I've seen "Mil spec" thrown around so much are those centered on the AR platform.
Does anyone own a mil spec Glock? How about a milspec Colt Python? A milspec pre 64 Winchester Model 70? I could go on....
Mil spec receiver extensions (buffer tubes to some of you) are just parts that are a certain dimension (within military specified tolerances), of a (mil spec)ified material, possibly with a (mil spec)ified coating.
The mil spec for any item the military procures is an assurance that all items of that type the military procures will be the same regardless of when it is purchased or who it is purchased from.
Every stitch of clothing that the military issues is mil spec but I don't think you will get too many service members say that the clothing they are issued is the best that can be obtained.
Any competent machinist, with the specified material and the ability to read the drawing can make the part!

While there is no milspec for civilian firearms, they all have one thing in common- They are built to a minimum standard by the lowest bidder. The great ones are built to a high standard by a bidder wanting to keep in business.

Some parts can be built by any machinist who can read a print, but not all of them can. There is so much involved with manufacturing a part that much of it is accomplished by "tribal knowledge". Fastest way to kill a successful project is to fire all the experienced workers and hire new ones.

I had a problem installing a few fasteners in the passenger floor assembly of one airliner that I could not get the engineers to address. If I got any part wrong, I wouldn't know until the assembly was finished and it would be too late to fix. It was more cost effective and faster for me to develop what turned out to be an unusual and tricky assembly sequence to assure it went together right every time and meet all the specifications, because if I got it wrong, there was no way to fix it. This procedure was never documented by the company and when I tried to teach it to a co-worker so my boss could put me on another project, the co-worker couldn't accomplish it as quickly or with the same level of quality. The blueprint did show how this assembly went together, but there was so much more to that little job than the blueprints showed.

You can mock the milspec, but there is a huge difference between a company with an experienced work force building to a known standard with a history of delivering on time, within budget, using proper processes with correct documentation & certifications while developing a good, long term relationship with the customer and looking at a blue print and saying "Hey Billy Bob, hold muh beer a minute!"

[Eurodriver]

Let me explain- no, that will take to long. Let me sum up- I don't think that word means what you think it means



When I design and install a skin repair on a 737, it meets the minimum specification set by Boeing in accordance with regulations set by the FAA. It means I use the correct materials specified by the repair manual. Not worse than. Not better than because "better" than is actually "worse than" because it can cause safety of flight issues. There is a failsafe row of rivets that is at the very edge of the repair doubler that calls for AD rivets, a softer less durable alloy than what is used with the normal E rivet. If I used the "better" E rivet instead, it will cause early failure of the repair. Not only is it the minimum specification, it's the only specification allowed because it's the only specification that ensures safety of flight.

My company provides service to an airline because it's the lowest bidder. But if we did not deliver as contracted, that airline would pull out and take their planes elsewhere.

I have also worked as an aviation contractor on military projects. We were the lowest bidder. Again, of we did not deliver, the contract was yanked. Why do companies spend so much effort to provide the best customer service possible? Because the contracts are lucrative.

Take the material specified for the barrels. It must meet a certain standard as set forth by the military. You can look up the spec sheet for yourself. The material Colt uses to meet that spec is 4150 CMV. It's more expensive than 4140 CM, the standard barrel steel used in most commercial rifles. 4150 CMV is also more durable than 4140. Some commercial AR manufacturers cut their receivers from a billet of 6061. These receivers are heavier and more expensive and pound for pound, less stiff than receivers cut from a 7075 forging as specified by milspec.

Yes, the milspec is the minimum standard and the contracts are given to the lowest bidder. But it's not only a good standard, it's a high standard and the suppliers work hard to meet them and spend a good amount of money to make sure they are maintained.



While there is no milspec for civilian firearms, they all have one thing in common- They are built to a minimum standard by the lowest bidder. The great ones are built to a high standard by a bidder wanting to keep in business.

Some parts can be built by any machinist who can read a print, but not all of them can. There is so much involved with manufacturing a part that much of it is accomplished by "tribal knowledge". Fastest way to kill a successful project is to fire all the experienced workers and hire new ones.

I had a problem installing a few fasteners in the passenger floor assembly of one airliner that I could not get the engineers to address. If I got any part wrong, I wouldn't know until the assembly was finished and it would be too late to fix. It was more cost effective and faster for me to develop what turned out to be an unusual and tricky assembly sequence to assure it went together right every time and meet all the specifications, because if I got it wrong, there was no way to fix it. This procedure was never documented by the company and when I tried to teach it to a co-worker so my boss could put me on another project, the co-worker couldn't accomplish it as quickly or with the same level of quality. The blueprint did show how this assembly went together, but there was so much more to that little job than the blueprints showed.

You can mock the milspec, but there is a huge difference between a company with an experienced work force building to a known standard with a history of delivering on time, within budget, using proper processes with correct documentation & certifications while developing a good, long term relationship with the customer and looking at a blue print and saying "Hey Billy Bob, hold muh beer a minute!"

Thank you so much for that.

I've always looked at it (and don't understand why others can't figure it out) as Colt's milspec is whatever standards the US Government said in writing that each rifle much meet, built for the lowest bidder (the US Gov't)

DPMS/Bushmaster/Armalite/DSArms/Stag Arms/etc also have a lowest bidder. Its called a weekend hobby shooter, but they don't have a contract with these people. If the market only willing to spend X amount of dollars on a rifle, it cannot cost more than Y to produce one. If the cost of labor and materials make Y increase to a point that they have to increase X (and lose sales) they will cut corners because they do not follow a set standard.

Where as regardless of circumstances, Colt must meet the TDP on every rifle it sells.

[wewing]

Does Colt really have to build to the TDP for rifles they sell to us civilians? Just asking.

[Iraqgunz]

This sillyness is finished.

1. We have had a plethora of discussions here about what MILSPEC means and what it doesn't. Unfortunately we cannot give classes on reading comprehension.

2. We aren't going to dogpile on Colt. We all know the history and things that have happened when Christ was a seaman. Get over it.

3. Comparing Spike's to Colt, BCM or DD is like comparing a Hyundai to a Toyota.

[C4IGrant]

Mil Spec schmilspec....Mil Spec is not the end all be all definitive standard of firearms quality! Mil spec is by definition the MINIMUM specifications that the government will accept, and from the lowest bidder at that in most cases!

Hello and welcome to the forum! You are correct in many ways. The lowest bidder thing when dealing with .Gov contracts is pretty much gone.

Does anyone own a mil spec Glock? How about a milspec Colt Python? A milspec pre 64 Winchester Model 70?

Glock (for instance) has a TDP and the Glock's that are purchased be the Military typically have a different setup than what is available to the public. This would be defined as a "Military Specification."

Mil spec receiver extensions (buffer tubes to some of you) are just parts that are a certain dimension (within military specified tolerances), of a (mil spec)ified material, possibly with a (mil spec)ified coating.
The mil spec for any item the military procures is an assurance that all items of that type the military procures will be the same regardless of when it is purchased or who it is purchased from.

Mil-Spec (the TDP) for the M4 (for instance) is a living document that is constantly evolving. Colt refines this document and is always finding better ways to make the weapon.

In regards to what the TDP does, it DEFINES EVERYTHING for how the gun is to be built. Steel used, all internal & external dimensions, thickness of chrome, twist rate, chamber, gas port size, accuracy standards, testing done, hardness and even the color of the phosphate!


So why is the above so important? Because the company has to follow this standard. Companies that do not follow the TDP end up following a "standard" that allows them to extract the most money they can from their gun.

Now, is there better than "Mil-Spec?" Yes, there can be, but at the moment there are very few parts/guns that EXCEED the TDP (though there are companies attempting to do so).



C4

[C4IGrant]

Does Colt really have to build to the TDP for rifles they sell to us civilians? Just asking.

It is the only way they know how to build them.

When you have two separate assembly lines, it is two easy for parts to get intermingled. So this is why companies do not do it.



C4