Real world data on the SA80

[Littlelebowski]

From our esteemed moderator and industry professional, Failure2Stop

F2S taught CQB and small arms to the Brits and had the opportunity to shoot this; actually use it for years. He was sent to the Royal Marines in between combat rotations with the US Marine Corps.

An excerpt:

The lack of adjustability of the LOP (length of pull) makes the gun sub-optimal for CQB. Everybody touts the thing for being so short, but the LOP is barely shorter than an M16A2. Combined with the zero amount of eye-relief of the SUSAT; CQB work with it when wearing armor sucks unless you want to rely solely on the laser (if you get one) or until the ACOGS come in (which have a MRD piggy-backed). The long LOP prevents the 3-man from carrying in the high port, which results in a less than speedy 3-man's gun in the room/fight.

The rest of his discourse is here.

[Ed L.]

The SA-80 has had a long history of issues:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/oc...tary.jamesmeek

from: http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/SA-80:

"Designed by the Ignorant, Built by the Incompetent, Issued to the Unfortunate."

It seems the gun earned the nickname of the "civil servant" because it doesn't work and you can't fire it.

More info:

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/sa80.pdf

And here is a comprehensive history of the gun if you have an afternoon to read it: http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_SA80.html


I am sure you can find negative articles on the M4/M-16 on the web, many of which reflect the early years in Vietnam before initial issues were corrected. But The criticisms of the SA-80/SA-85 are substantive and are far greater in depth than anything with the AR--plus there are a lot of them that don't seem to be addresssed by the upgrades/corrections to the SA-80.

[PanzerJaeger]

I am sure you can find negative articles on the M4/M-16 on the web, many of which reflect the early years in Vietnam before initial issues were corrected.

Indeed. Your second article even had some criticisms of the AR versus the SA80.

The media
has been buzzing
about problems with the SA80A2 in
Afghanistan, and we have not been able to
pin down any specific problems from the
general comments made. Reports on the
failure of the M4 Carbine to perform are
abundant as well, and there is at least one
comment shared with your faithful correspondent
from someone who was there for
comparison testing, that the M4 Carbine
failed miserably, while the SA80A2 had
virtually no problems. All of this will come
out in the wash of course.

[Littlelebowski]

Indeed. Your second article even had some criticisms of the AR versus the SA80.

What are you getting at?

[PanzerJaeger]

What are you getting at?

Nothing at all. It was just interesting to read a comment like that in light of the blog post at the beginning of this thread - no problems from the SA-80 while the M4 floundered. There is a lot of static and anecdote out there...

[Ed L.]

Indeed. Your second article even had some criticisms of the AR versus the SA80.

The issues with the SA80 are more extensive and many are inherint in the design and not addressable.

Let's look at the M16/M4 issues:

When they first came out they had serious malfunction issues in Vietnam due to use with a different ammo that shot dirtier and increased the cyclic rate beyond the design parameters.

This was addressed by a chroming the chamber and barrel and IIRC using a stiffer action spring that reduced the cyclic rate.

It has been criticized in the 21st century war for reliability issues.

This is successfully addressed by stressing a PM routine that includes heavy lubrication as opposed to trying to run the gun dry.

Also important is throwing out any mags that prove to be problematic and replacing the extractor/extractor spring & extractor spring insert when needed or ideally before it is needed--like every 3-4k rounds. It's a relatively cheap part and if your life is at stake and you are using it in combat conditions preventative maintanance like that can prevent problems.

If the Army was trying to get 200k miles out of tires on the Humvees and they kept blowing out on the road would anyone be surprised?

[Ed L.]

As for length of pull & Bullpups, it is a bit different because the Bullpups that I have used extensively (Steyr AUG & FN FS2000) have their weight further back. It is actually between your hand that runs the gun's controls and your body. Thus it doesn't seem nearly as heavy. I've only briefly handled an SA80 so I don't feel fit to comment on it. Whereas I have used the AUG & FS2000 in about 4 multiday carbine classes.

Below is a picture of my HK416 on a Colt Lower with its stock all the way collapsed next to my Steyr AUG with a 16" barrel.



The AUG is a bit longer than the HK, but it has a 16" barrel. If I were to get the NFA 14" barrel for the AUG it would be about the same length as the 416 with its stock fully collapsed.

The 416 is heavy for an AR and I typically run it with the stock all the way collapsed or out just one position out. Any further and the heavy weight of the gun seems too far out. The standard AR feels about the same.

However, both the AUG and the FS2000 have their weight and center of gravity further back so it is less tiring to carry and use than a 416 or a standard AR. I have found this the case when I used either of the bullpups for classes.

[Heavy Metal]

This was addressed by a chroming the chamber and barrel and IIRC using a stiffer action spring that reduced the cyclic rate.

Heavier buffer with segmented weights.

[CumbiaDude]

Below is a picture of my HK416 on a Colt Lower with its stock all the way collapsed next to my Steyr AUG with a 16" barrel.

What would you need to do to get the LOP set to be about the same? That's something I hadn't ever thought of with bullpups before I read this thread. Would the stock have to be all the way extended to get that long a LOP? Or even then would the AUG be longer?

[Nightvisionary]

Interesting read. I suppose the SA80 was a more practical weapon for patrolling the streets of Northern Ireland when it replaced the 46 inch long L1A1 in the 80's.